[ELLIE: What are you so afraid of? That I’m going to end up like Sam? I can’t get infected! I can take care of myself!
JOEL: How many close calls have we had?
ELLIE: Well, we seem to be doing alright so far.
JOEL: And now you’ll be doing even better with Tommy.
ELLIE: I’m not her you know.
JOEL: What?
ELLIE: Maria told me about Sarah, and-
JOEL: Ellie. You are treading on some mighty thin ice here.
ELLIE: I’m sorry about your daughter Joel, but I’ve lost people too.
JOEL: You have no idea what loss is.
ELLIE: Everyone I have cared for has either died or left me. Everyone fucking except for you. So don’t tell me that I would be safer with someone else. Because the truth is I would just be more scared.
JOEL: You’re right. You’re not my daughter. And I sure as hell ain’t your dad.]
<<TLOU PODCAST THEME SONG>>
CHRISTIAN: This is the Official The Last of Us Podcast. I’m your host Christian Spicer. As we all await the release of game two, I’m revisiting part one and talking with the visionaries and talent who made it. We’ll be recapping the story while diving deep into the making-of.
If you haven’t listened to our first two episodes yet, be sure to go back and do so as we’re walking through this story chronologically. In today’s episode we’ll be covering the Fall Chapter, as well as the DLC Left Behind. I’ll be talking with Troy Baker and Ashley Johnson (aka: Joel and Ellie), UI Designer Alexandria Neonakis, and writer and creative director Neil Druckmann.
At the end of our last episode we were left with the tragic deaths of Henry and Sam.
[SFX of gunshot]
It’s an unforgettable moment that sticks with me to to this day and closes out the Summer chapter of the game. We are in a new season; It is now Fall. Joel and Ellie have made their way out of Pittsburgh and are on their way to Joel’s brother, Tommy.
NEIL: I guess to talk about the fall, we have to back up a little bit and talk about, you know, the whole summer section. Uh, especially Pittsburgh is about Joel and Ellie learning to trust each other. It's like they, they don't like each other and they learn to respect each other. Joel becomes at the outset of Pittsburgh, Joel is over-protective.
[JOEL: You just hang back like I told you to.]
Um, and we try to show it multiple times where he shoots Ellie down when she's trying to be helpful--
[JOEL: I’m glad I didn’t get my head blown off by a goddamn kid.
--until eventually he gives her the rifle and he starts trusting her--
[JOEL: Now you seem to know your way around a gun. You reckon you can handle that?]
--and she proves herself in his eyes and he's like bringing some of his guard down and he's opening up to her more--
[JOEL: How bout something a little more your size.]
--until Henry and Sam, until he sees a reflection of their relationship embodied with these two other people where Sam has now died. And Henry has just experienced a fate worse than death and takes his own life. And Joel sees himself in that. So now that event has made himself distance himself from Ellie and now his focus become, get her to my brother, I can't handle this. And that's where we come into fall is like, you feel the tension between the character. The relationship is different and Joel is not answering Ellie's question the way he was at the end of summer.
[ELLIE: Does that have anything to do with me?
JOEL: We’ll talk about it later.
ELLIE: Later.]
TROY: And there's the, the moment of just walking. Um, when they find the small grave, uh, when you're walking past the, the dam. And again it's another reminder that children die in this world.
[JOEL: That’s too small of a grave…
ELLIE: (sighs) I forgot to leave that stupid robot on his grave. What should I do with it?
JOEL: Ellie…
ELLIE: What?]
TROY: Um, and then of course, Ellie's the one that, that admonishes Joel
[ELLIE: I want to talk about it.
JOEL: No.
ELLIE: Why not?
JOEL: How many times to we need to go over this? Things happen, and we move on.]
TROY: But as we head into, uh, Tommy's town, um, and we haven't seen each other in how long? How long has it been since? And that was one of the questions that we asked, and of course Neil answers, like, what do you think? And Jeffrey has his version of, of like what happened. And I have my own version of what happened and I, I like the fact that they're, they're different.
CHRISTIAN: I imagine Joel and Tommy have their own versions of what happened as well.
TROY: Absolutely. And to me that's exactly why, it's like, those narratives are, are probably different. It’s like, well, he said-- No, no, no. What he's not telling you is that he said this first.
[SFX of gate opening
MARIA: Don’t even think about reaching for your weapon. Tell the girl to drop hers now.
JOEL: Ellie, do as the lady says.
ELLIE: K.
MARIA: Please tell me you’re lost.
JOEL: We didn’t know the place was occupied. We’re just trying to make our way through.
MARIA: Through to where?]
TROY: But what Joel is expecting to find on the other side of that gate, is for his brother to go, Get the fuck outta here.
[TOMMY: They’re alright.
MARIA: What, you know these people?
TOMMY: I know him…]
TROY: And instead, he grabs him.
[TOMMY: He’s my goddamn brother.
JOEL: Tommy…
TOMMY: Holy shit.]
TROY: And Joel is so taken back by that.
[JOEL: (chuckles) How you doing, baby brother?
TOMMY: God damn.
JOEL: Yeah…
TOMMY: Let me look at you… (smirks) You got fuckin’ old.
JOEL: (chuckles) Easy. It’s gonna happen to you too.
TOMMY: This is Maria. Be nice to her, she sorta... runs things around here.
JOEL: Ma’am. Thanks for not blowing my head off.
MARIA: Would have been embarrassing, considering you’re my brother-in-law.
TOMMY: (scoffs) We all gotta get wrangled up at some point…
MARIA: “Ellie," right?
ELLIE: ...Yeah.
MARIA: What brings you through here?
ELLIE: Uh… that’s kind of a long story.
TOMMY: Why don’t we bring ‘em inside?
MARIA: Yeah. You hungry?
ELLIE: Starving.
NEIL: The whole idea of family is like something that's been instilled in me is like, you don't choose your family. Like your family's who they are and you deal with them and you love them and you respect them. And it's like, sure, sometimes you fight in horrible ways, but they're your family. You don't get to choose them. You don't get to push them out. And later we find out that Joel and Tommy had like a pretty big falling out. And yet when they see each other, they can't help but embrace each other and miss each other. And again, it's that idea of tribalism and you could have overlaps of different tribes that you belong to. And here's one that's blood, his biological brother. So that was important to capture, especially knowing we're about to put them at odds with this request or almost demand that Joel makes of Tommy that take this girl off my hands.
JOEL: ...I’ve been on quite the adventure, little brother.
TOMMY: I reckon it’s got something to do with that girl.
JOEL: (scoffs) It’s got everything to do with that little girl.
TOMMY: Well... go on then.
JOEL: She’s immune.
TOMMY: Immune to what? … (scoffs) Aw, come on.
JOEL: See, I know. I’ve seen her breath enough spores to take down a dozen men. And nothing. Now, I wouldn’t have believed it neither. But I can show you.
TOMMY: Alright.
TOMMY: I’ll bite. Why bring her here?
JOEL: I was supposed to deliver her to the Fireflies. The way I figure, they’re your boys--
TOMMY: (scoffs)
JOEL: You finish the job, you collect the whole damn payment.
TOMMY: I haven’t seen a Firefly in years.
JOEL: But you know where they are. Now I’m not asking for much, Tommy. I just want some simple gear, enough to set me on my way.
TOMMY: What makes you think I’d do this for you?
JOEL: This isn’t FOR ME, Tommy. This is for your damn cause.
TOMMY: My cause is my family now. You ain’t talkin’ about some walk in the park here.
JOEL: Jesus, boy! Have Maria get some of your born-again friends to do it. But I--
TOMMY: They got families too.
JOEL: Tommy, I need this!
TOMMY: (sighs) ...You want some gear? Sure. But I ain’t takin’ that girl off your hands.
TROY: I think that that moment is that remembrance of Joel that, uh, this isn't a job, this, this, this is, uh, this is an investment in tragedy, and this, there's only one way that this is going to play out. So, it's a moment of cowardice of Joel. Um, it's a complete abdication of everything, of who he was as a father, and who he is as a mercenary, who is paid to do a job. Uh, and he's going to be neither of those things. And what he's going to do is he's going to pawn this girl off to-- she's going to die, but I won't be anywhere near it, her, when it happens
CHRISTIAN: Is he afraid of losing Ellie in the sense of even just giving her over to Tommy? Is there loss there or losing a mission? He has, what does he have to go back to at this point? There's no Tess. Is there another gun run? Like, where is Joel?
TROY: He's lost. He doesn’t have- What is he going to go, go back to the Quarantine Zone? He can't go back there. No one's there waiting for him. Matter of fact, if anybody is waiting for him, they're waiting to kill him.
CHRISTIAN: [laughs] Right.
TROY: He can't go… w--where does, where does he have to go? And I, I think that um, Joel is, does get very close, eh, very quickly with, with Henry and Sam. Um, they go through something together. Um, so there's a lot that happens in, in, in, as we see a lot happen in a, um, kind of, trauma or, or, or heightened situations, like, um, people have a tendency to fall in love when they're in like, we were in prison together and we fell in love, you know? It's when you put people in heightened situations, a lot of times though, you, you speed up and expedite some of those, um, normal relationship tropes. And we cut very quickly to,
[HENRY: Come on man give me details! Describe it!]
Oh, now we're sitting down, we’re, we're having this laughing moment together and telling stories and planning, and now we're partners, I have a partner again and this guy is really, really good, and we're going to go, we're going to take out, we're going to, we're going to go storm the gates of this, uh, you know, fortress together. So I mean, we see that, that relationship. I think that when we leave Bill's town, Joel is hellbent on proving Bill wrong. And then what he finds is that when he meets Henry and Sam, Bill, Bill is so proven right.
CHRISTIAN: Do you think in Joel's heart of hearts at that moment, he, he actually wants Tommy to say no?
NEIL: I think if it didn't go down the way it did and Tommy just said yes, Joel would've rode off, I really do cause that that to him would have been like, this is what's meant to be. And when he tells Ellie, like you'll be safer with Tommy, there's a part of him in that moment or believes that. The thing that, that kind of, um, changes his mind is when Ellie says,
[ELLIE: Everyone I have cared for has either died or left me. Everyone fucking except for you.]
So like that makes her feel safer is being with Joel. Like she, she makes an argument of like, of course in the moment he doesn't hear her because he's just so caught up with her running away and her putting herself at risk and it's like, right. It's like an angry parent. Every parent has had this where you get so upset with your kid almost hurting themselves. Your, your kid gets frightened of like your reaction of like, cause you're just, you're yelling at them or you grabbing them by the shoulders. It's like, but it's because you're so scared for their safety and you might be oversteering in your reaction. And that's exactly what Joel is doing at this point.
[ELLIE: Is this really all they had to worry about? Boys, movies, deciding which shirt goes with what skirt? It’s bizarre.
JOEL: Get up, we’re leaving come on.
ELLIE: And if I say no?
JOEL: Do you even realize what your life means huh? Running off like that, putting your life at risk? It’s pretty god damn stupid.
ELLIE: Well I guess we’re both pretty disappointed with each other then.
JOEL: What do you want from me?
ELLIE: Admit that you wanted to get rid of me the whole time.
JOEL: Tommy knows this area and
ELLIE: Oh fuck that…
JOEL: I’m sorry, I trust him better than I trust myself.
ELLIE: Stop with the bullshit, what are you so afraid of? That I’m gonna end up like Sam? I can’t get infected, I can take care of myself.
JOEL: How many close calls have we had?
ELLIE: Well we seem to be doing alright so far.
JOEL: And now you’ll be doing even better with Tommy.
ELLIE: I’m not her you know.
JOEL: What?
ELLIE: Maria told me about Sarah.
JOEL: Ellie, you’re treading on some mighty thin ice here.
ELLIE: I’m sorry about your daughter Joel, but I’ve lost people too.
JOEL: You have no idea what loss is.
ELLIE: Everyone I’ve cared for has either died or left me. Everyone fucking except for you. So don’t tell me that I would be safer with someone else, because the truth is I would just be more scared.
JOEL: You’re right, you’re not my daughter. And I sure as hell ain’t your dad.]
ASHLEY: ...I love that scene. That was one of my favorite scenes that we actually shot. I believe that… [sighs] it's, it's one of the most important moments in their relationship because they both to some degree are opening up about some heavy stuff. And granted it's a, a bit of a heated exchange, but they're getting stuff out. They're both trying to figure out how much they actually do care about each other. Um, and it was always interesting to me that Joel assumed that Ellie didn't know what loss was. Because how could you not know what loss is in this world? I mean everyone has lost someone. But you can choose to not let people in. Um, because if anything happened to that person, you'd have to, uh, experience that loss again. And, and Joel has learned to cope by distancing himself from people on purpose. And Ellie has absolutely thrown a wrench in that. But it's, it's interesting to me how they both have recovered from loss. Joel with deciding to not let people in. And yes, Ellie is only 14 years old and, and hasn't had mu-- as much life experience as Joel has. But what's refreshing about that is she's on the other end of the spectrum. Yes, loss is hard, but we need people and I'm going to let you in. And Joel is pushing it away and Ellie's forcing him to realize that he does need people and you're going to be hurt anyway, so you might as well be surrounded by people you care about. Ellie knows this about Joel. She's not stupid. She's young, but she sees his pain and she asks him what he's so afraid of because she knows. She's trying to, to make him talk about it, and, and that's why she says “I'm not her, you know?” And she’s smart. She puts two and two together and she doesn't want to go on the rest of the journey with anyone else because at this point she cares about Joel and she trusts him.
TROY: That moment was a baptism for both Joel and Ellie. And they were, the people that they were went under the water and, and they came back up and it was like, all right, I'm in. I'm fully in. We leave Tommy's town. Um, there's, there's the reconciliation there, there's forgiveness there, and it's like, alright, I'm going to do what's right. I’m gonna, I'm going to do this thing and I'm going to do it. I'm going to follow through on this.
[JOEL: Where is this lab of theirs?
TOMMY: It’s all the way out, University of Eastern Colorado.
JOEL: Go Big Horns! Ellie get off your horse, give it on back to Tommy I’m gonna hang on to this if that’s alright with you. Go on, don’t make me repeat myself.
TOMMY: What are you doing?
JOEL: Your wife kinda scares me. I don’t want her coming after me.
ELLIE: Sorry for stealing your horse.
TOMMY: Come back to town let’s discuss it at least.
JOEL: You know me, my mind’s all made up. University of Eastern Colorado, how do I find this lab?
TOMMY: It’s in the science building, looks like a giant mirror you can’t miss it.
JOEL: Take care of that wife of yours.
TOMMY: There’s place for you here, you know.
JOEL: You good?
ELLIE: I’m good.
JOEL: Adios little brother.]
CHRISTIAN: So at this point in the game, Joel takes Ellie and they are off to the university.
[ELLIE: Hey, over there. Is that it?
JOEL: Hmm. It DOES look like a giant mirror.
ELLIE: How many people you think are there? Uh, Fireflies, I mean.
JOEL: I reckon it takes quite a crew to run that operation.
ELLIE: Do you think there’ll be other people my age?
JOEL: ...Uh, I’m not sure.]
CHRISTIAN: There are no Fireflies
[ELLIE: Yoohoo, Fireflies! Cure for mankind here! Anyone?]
CHRISTIAN: But there are monkeys...
[ELLIE: Aww, are those monkeys?
JOEL: Yeah, a whole mess of ‘em.
ELLIE: That was kind of awesome.
JOEL: First time seeing a monkey?
ELLIE: First time seeing a monkey.]
CHRISTIAN: And I'm curious from a design standpoint, the purpose for monkeys at this moment and all the things that it could possibly represent, um, the larger story that that moment is telling within this world that the characters are living in.
NEIL: Well, I'm sure it started with a brainstorm of like, okay, we knew we wanted to go to this university. Um, we wanted to keep you on this, um, trail, this clue chain to find the fireflies and wanted to say they've done some research here. They they were here trying to develop a vaccine. They failed. Um, and that's where the idea for like a monkey came up with at the end. Like that they were testing monkeys, monkeys could get infected with this thing, unlike other animals. And the guy doing the research was bitten by them. And then we worked our way backwards from that moment, which is at the end of the level to say, okay, what are interesting things you could see in this level as you're riding around and you're coming across all these dead ends. And it's like, well, if they, he let all the monkeys loose then there should be like a pack of monkeys running around here. Um, and that way like, okay, cool. When you crest this hill and you come across this fountain then we could place all these monkeys and animate them and it's becomes this kind of beautiful moment that then sets up this disappointment of like finding later that everyone has already left.
CHRISTIAN: I'm curious to what extent that loss, um, continues for Joel and Ellie in terms of the false, and this isn't quite right, but the false starts and stops of, of hope they have where so much of the game seems to be, if we just get this thing, we'll get to this and we're done. Now we just need to get to the university and we'll get this and it's done. And feeling that, that loss each time, what keeps them going? What, why, why keep marching and why not pull a Bill or pull a Tommy and, you know, put a tent down somewhere and give it up?
NEIL: Yeah. And the answer is each other. Um, that I guess for Ellie, maybe it's a little more complicated, it's, it's, uh, it's finding purpose in the loss. That's what drives her. And every time they experienced another loss, it's, it's more of a drive to finish. Just, it's more of a reason to keep going, not less of a reason. And then for Joel, and by the time we get to the university, so we kind of hit this low point where he was adamant about getting rid of Ellie. They have their, their biggest fight where they, she shoves him and tells him she's not his daughter and you know, he's just trying to be really mean to her to push her away. But it has the opposite effect where he realized, he realizes at that point it's gotta be me like no one else can. Like I'm the best equipped to do this. And now he's just take it on, whatever that means. Like, uh, he's understanding that he might feel the same loss he's felt before and he's realizing maybe it's worth it. So there's the, the most, he's put his guard down and you hear it in his voice and then their conversation they're having is like, he's telling her now, like he had a kid when he was really young and that was really rough on him.
[ELLIE: Have you ever been to one of these?
JOEL: What, a university?
ELLIE: Yeah.
JOEL: No not as a student at least.
ELLIE: Why not?
JOEL: Uh… I had Sarah when I was pretty young.
ELLIE: Huh. Were you married?
JOEL: For a while.
ELLIE: What happened?
JOEL: Okay.
ELLIE: Too much?
JOEL: Too much.]
He misses like singing and playing guitar
[JOEL: When I was a kid I used to want to be a singer.
ELLIE: Shut up.
JOEL: I’m serious.
ELLIE: Sing something!
JOEL: Uh, no.
ELLIE: Come on!]
And he's talking to Ellie about like, she wanted to be an astronaut.
[ELLIE: Hey, I was thinking. I would have wanted to be an astronaut.
JOEL: That a fact?
ELLIE: Yeah. Can you imagine being up there all by yourself? Woulda been cool. I’m just saying.]
And these two characters are really opening up to each other in a way they haven't before. And of course, being cruel writers that we are, we're doing that knowing that Joel is about to get impaled on the rebar and pretty much die as far as the player knows.
CHRISTIAN: Yeah. When, uh, uh, the definitive edition or whatever the, another collector's edition comes out, I want the steel case with the back of the box quote to be by you. And it says, we're fucking cruel writers. Please enjoy The Last of Us.
NEIL: But I mean, like we laugh. But to me those are the best stories.
CHRISTIAN: Um, so we're, we're you, you took us there and I think it's a great place to continue the conversation of, you gave them hope. You know, the team Naughty Dog, the story, gives Joel and Ellie hope through the recordings.
[RECORDINGS: You’re looking for the Fireflies, they all left.
ELLIE: Yeah, no shit.
RECORDINGS: I’m dead. Or I will be soon.]
Uh, they find out where the fireflies are going. They have their breadcrumbs. Hansel and Gretel are on, are on the path. Everything's looking, you know, here comes Mr. Brightside
[RECORDINGS: Good luck with that.
ELLIE: Do you know where that is?
JOEL: I know the city.
ELLIE: Is it far?
JOEL: It ain’t close. I mean on horseback…
ELLIE: What? Fireflies?
JOEL: Get down.]
And then Joel and Ellie are ambushed and Joel is impaled.
[ELLIE: Come on.
JOEL: Just… get the horse.
ELLIE: Alright.
ELLIE: Can you get on?
JOEL: Go.]
NEIL: It feels random in the moment, it feels like, Oh, it's just another group of Hunters trying to kill us to steal stuff. It's some faceless enemy, even though it is human. But as a player, you've almost been now conditioned to think of them as just, okay, it's just another, it's just another NPC. And then later we wanted to give this moment more way to say, no, it wasn't just any NPC like you fighting these guys had consequences going forward. You killing these people and them trying to kill you and injuring Joel has affected these whole other section that you're about to get it. And you won't know until the end of that section that that was the case or midway through that section. So that's what was important for us to show that one. It could just, these deaths, these moments can just come out of nowhere. Um, even with like when you think about Henry and Sam, it was just like some random Runner that just bit him. It wasn't as far as, you know, it wasn't some climactic moment. It wasn't this big heroic sacrifice. It was just, it just happens. And often in life that's, that's how these things go down.
CHRISTIAN: And then after Joel is impaled, um, we, we continue to play as him. That is still the character that, that the player is in control of. Um, and while pre-release marketing, never, if I recall correctly, never let us know that we would play as someone else.
NEIL: Yeah. Not only that, we actively lied about playing as someone else.
CHRISTIAN: Okay. So that's another back of the box quote.
NEIL: Yeah, we wanted the player to for this moment to lose hope, um, that they've come to care for this guy. And they come to love this relationship, these two characters have for one another. And this whole, we haven't talked a lot about mechanics, but you know, the, the whole time you're getting better at controlling him at the mechanics of using the guns, using melee, of protecting yourself, of relying on Ellie, um, you're upgrading your character, different abilities. So there's stats are getting better and that makes you kind of a stronger force to be reckoned with. And now we're stripping all that away. So now you're moving slower. You can't, when you try to run Joel stumbles,
[SFX of JOEL stumbling
ELLIE: Can you handle the window?
JOEL: Yeah.
JOEL grunts in effort
ELLIE: Jesus. Come on! Move!]
Um, your, your weapons sway way more. In fact, like as you're walking forward, there's like specific moments where we have Joel just tumble down or he like leans onto the counters and he's bleeding a lot
[SFX of blood pumping]
And we want you to start thinking, Holy shit is this guy gonna die? Is like Naughty Dog gonna kill off the main character here? So we want you to start asking that question. Um, so that by the time you get to the next part, and we don't show you what happened and you're only playing as Ellie, we want you to at least entertain, is Joel dead? Did they just kill off Joel? And I felt like that was important for medium and this kind of story for you to play that transition and not just see it. So that was always going to be a, from the very first pitch that was the reason to make this game was this shift in perspective. That you have these kind of more stereotypical characters that you have to protector and the protectee and then you're going to flip it on its head. And then the, the quote unquote damsel in distress has to become the protector and Joel is so incapacitated, um, she has to take care of him.
[ELLIE: I think we’re safe. Joel? Joel! Shit! Joel, Joel here. Get up, get up, get up. You gotta tell me what to do. Come on. You’ve got to get up! Joel!]
ASHLEY: You know, Ellie learned so much from Joel and… in that part of the game, we really see how much she's grown and it shows how important their relationship has been. And we also see how fiercely loyal she is and she wants to protect him and save him. Um, not just to finish the journey, but because she cares so much about him. And of course there's an extra layer of, of worry and anxiety now because she feels responsible, because this is post that conversation of her being like, Hey, let's be there for each other. [laughs] I think she needed that time of him not being able to tell her what to do, for her to trust herself to grow. Of being like, Hey, you're on your own. I've taught you as much as I can. Not that he put her out on her own on purpose, but I think she took all the knowledge that she learned from him and was able to help him and protect him. And that sets up that she is absolutely capable to take care of herself.
TROY: And what I love is that it didn't just slam to black, but that there's this moment that's delayed, so that Joel could witness the fact that he is no longer capable of protecting her, which forces her once again to be in a situation where people are trying to kill her, and she is the one that ends up killing. And she does it so brutally and dispassionately. Um, and she becomes the, we, we get to witness firsthand through those, you know, in and out of consciousness moments, of Ellie becoming the protector.
CHRISTIAN: What, what do you think Joel learned in those moments?
ASHLEY: Well, I think it was one of those things for him that... it was a big point because he realized how much she cared about him and that she, obviously he was in this position because of her, but he is still alive because of her. And I think, you know, up until this point in the game . He was trying to deny that he cared about her, and I think he sort of got himself to a place, once he sort of I think he realizes, Oh, I, I, I care so much about this person and that sets up the rest of the game, of the decisions that he makes where he's like, Oh, this is, this relationship is so important to me. I will do anything to keep this, because I've forgotten about this, and I’ve forgotten the importance of this,
RILEY: (makes Infected hissing sounds)
ELLIE: (screams)
RILEY: (laughs)
ELLIE: Riley?
RILEY: Ow… I landed on my hip.
ELLIE: What the hell? I thought I was bitten.
RILEY: (laughing) I know. It was kinda awesome… You’re not gonna kill me, are you?
ELLIE: (scoffs) I haven’t seen you… in I don’t even know how long.
RILEY: 45 days… Well, 46, technically. Wanna know what I’ve been up to?
ELLIE: ...All this time, I thought you were dead
RILEY: ...Yeah… Here. Look.
ELLIE: No way…
ELLIE: You’re a Firefly. Here, congrats.
RILEY: Put some pants on and let’s go.
ELLIE: (sighs) I’m so dumb.
RILEY: Aww, come on. When have we ever gotten into trouble?
CHRISTIAN: So we're talking, uh, uh, left behind the DLC or for some folks who came to the party late, the standalone DLC, and in left behind, we not only learned, um, we as players, we got to see things that we didn't see in the main game, but we also learned more about Ellie's character that took place chronologically before the main game started. Ashley, I'm curious for you if you always knew there would be DLC or if not, what that was like when you got the call and you found out that you're going to be doing, you know, going back in and, and you know, making what became left behind.
ASHLEY: I always knew that there was going to be a DLC. I didn't know what it was going to be about. And I feel like for most of the game I just assumed it would be another part of Joel story. And, uh, once we got closer to shooting the DLC and Neil sort of toying with some different ideas, he finally, you know, he took me out and we talked about it and I was like, Oh, okay, cool. Um, knowing that the DLC was going to focus a little bit more on Ellie. Um, I initially was nervous cause I was like, well, and he's like, don't worry, Troy is still gonna be in it, but it's, you know, it's going to be part of, of this part of the story and then there's going to be flashbacks. And I remember some of the first art that I saw for it was the carousel of when the doors first opened and the power is on in the mall. I instantly, it made all the sense and I was like, Oh yeah, this is the story that needs to be told.
[RILEY: Come on! Get up here! Sit next to me!
ELLIE: Alright!]
CHRISTIAN: And now in the DLC we stepped back and we see kind of what Ellie's maybe normal life would be like, whether it's, you know, she's asleep in her room. And Riley kind of busting in and I'm curious what you thought Ellie's normal life was either prior to left behind or when you were building the character going into left behind
ASHLEY: Yeah, I, Neil and I actually talked about this where, you know, it's, and also trying to figure out why she was initially so scared to sort of sneak out and go into the mall and, um, you know, they have, they have schedules to this, to this life and you know, she doesn't have any parents, so she's kind of with all these other kids that have lost their parents or their families and they go to school, they run their drills and it's, they live this life just in this small quarantine zone and it's all they know. You know, they don't have anything else to compare it to, but we as an audience know what the, what that comparison is. And I think that's what makes it devastating. Cause you're, you're like, Oh, you could have such a different life than this, but this is what you're given
CHRISTIAN: And also for players, this is the first time we found out that Ellie was queer. And I'm curious, when you found that out and what it was like bringing that into the role?
ASHLEY: Yeah. I actually, when we had finished the game bright before we had started, the DLC I think is when Neil told me. He's like, I want to talk to you about this and your thoughts on this. I, I have an idea for the DLC and something that I've thought is, I think Ellie is queer and what are your thoughts on that? And I'm pretty sure that's when it happened. But I know for me, for, for a lot of the, the first part of the game we hadn't talked about at least sexuality, and I always felt like one that was decided something clicked with Ellie because she's definitely queer. Like it's, it makes all the sense in the world. And I, I wish I would have known that from the beginning because I don't know if I would have done anything differently, who knows? But, um, I was just so excited to jump into the DLC with that in mind and knowing that the friendship and the relationship with Riley was, there was a heavier weight there.
CHRISTIAN: Something that I found so personally beautiful about Ellie's character is that it works. It worked in the main game before I had experienced, uh, Left Behind. And after learning Ellie sexuality, there wasn't anything in the game that stood out as not- now not working in my head. If anything, it let me re-examine scenes from the game and they became more powerful.
ASHLEY: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me because I feel like playing the DLC and then going back and playing the game through, um, a lot of things do land a little harder and yeah, especially with Bill when you're like, Oh man, he's talking about his partner and I really wonder how that landed for Ellie and um, I feel like Left Behind is such a beautiful story of first love and it's also incredibly sad because we know what the outcome is. Um, but I, I do feel like it, it, it's, it's great to play that and then go back to the first game with that knowledge because Ellie becomes so much more of a well rounded character.
ALEXANDRIA: My name is Alexandria Neonakis. Uh, on The Last of Us and Left Behind, I was the UI designer.
CHRISTIAN: So, I'd love to start with, um, what your day-to-day was.
ALEXANDRIA: It was a lot of trying to compress kind of years worth of work into, um, months. And so it was like, um, kinda wire-frame mockups and I would bring them to, uh, Bruce Straley and Neil and be like, Hey, like, what do you think of doing something like this for the weapon cross? Or what do you think of something like this for crafting? And then I'd even tried doing like some real minor scripting to try to make stuff work. So it was very like, fly by the seat of your pants and like really chaotic. Uh, and then the next day it would be like, okay, let's look at it. Let's talk about what works and what doesn't work. Let's play through the game and feel it out. So, it was very game design-y, um, much more than, like, on the art side of things. Um, and it was very collaborative. It was a lot of getting out of my seat and working with Neil and Bruce, and the other designers as well, and programmers to try to get it done and get it as good as we could get it, uh, with the limited resources we had in the limited time that we had.
CHRISTIAN: So you mentioned kind of the weapon wheel, or the weapon selector and crafting. What are other, um, UI moments that players have, have likely seen, um, when they experience the game, that maybe they didn't think of as something that needed to have art, um, and design and that stuff associated with it? The things I think a lot of us maybe just take for granted.
ALEXANDRIA: I mean anything that's giving you, the player, um, kinda game-specific information. So, the little, uh, icons at the bottom that tell you what weapon you have equipped and how much ammo you have, and um, if you're able to craft something.
[SFX of crafting weapons]
Uh, so every little, like, it's the, it’s that, like, layer on the screen that's between you as the player and the, and the game itself. It's like the thing that you are actually interacting with in an attempt to interact with the game, I guess, if that makes any sense. Um, all the menus, uh, so including multiplayer in Factions. I did all of the menu design for that, and any of the UI that ended up in Factions as well.
CHRISTIAN: You don't know how many people just let out a cheer when you mentioned multiplayer in Factions.
ALEXANDRIA: Yeah. The, uh, The Last of Us multiplayer is awesome.
CHRISTIAN: It's so good. Um, do you think there were more challenges in making UI for a game that is so grounded in realism versus whatever your example would be of like a “video game” video game, where numbers are flying off of things, you know, and it can be bombastic and whatever because it's not this grounded universe?
ALEXANDRIA: I think that's twofold, because there were definitely people in the studio who wanted to have that more, like, classic video game thing. Especially if you look at something like multiplayer, like, you know, you’re kind of used to seeing certain things in games like that. Um, but there was kind of the blessing of there not being enough time. Um,
CHRISTIAN: [laughs]
ALEXANDRIA: And so, we had prototyped, uh, some stuff that-- for the UI-- that had a bit more of, like, texture to it. But, uh, because we had so little time, um, it was easier for me to push that... I like really minimal stuff. I feel like you notice it less. Like, if something's really tactile, uh, it kinda starts to stand out, especially because you can't control how the user's going to see it. Like, if they're looking at it against, like, a bright sky, it's gonna look different than looking at it against like a dark, like going through a tunnel situation with a flashlight. So minimal stuff can kind of reduce some of that a little bit, and it helps it blend into the background a bit more so it's not pulling attention to itself. And so I had known that that's what I'd wanted to do with it. And most people as well in the company knew that that's what they wanted to see with it. Very minimal, w-- to, to allow more, uh, attention to go on the story and the, the art in the game. Um, but of course, there's people-- and like, because Naughty Dog, everyone gets to have a say, like, sometimes you'd get people that were like, you know, Oh, I like it when games look more like the World of Warcraft type of UI. And it's like, okay, well, it's a different, it's a different style of game and we don't have time, so we're not going to do it. [laughs] Uh, so yeah, it was kind of a, a blessing.
CHRISTIAN: Let's, uh, let’s take a minute to talk through Left Behind, because it serves the purpose of filling in a gap, both in Ellie's backstory, and also the moments in the main game that we didn't see - of her taking care of Joel. Um, for many players, myself included, who played The Last of Us at launch, it was a chapter they played after having experienced the ending and, you know, feeling whatever it is we felt towards Joel and Ellie. I'm curious, your take on how that after-the-fact experience maybe colors players’ perceptions of the end and what that moment of caretaking was like for Ellie in Joel’s time of need?
ALEXANDRIA: It all felt to me like, um, strengthening that moment where, uh, they're in the, they're in the li-- the girl's room. Where Ellie has run away and Joel finds her, and um, they have that kind of spat, that fight. It kind of strengthened that for me. Where it's like, okay, Ellie, like, the-- you don't really get much into how much loss Ellie has experienced. And so, to me, Left Behind was about that. It was like, Joel is not the only person in this world who's experienced extreme loss. This very young girl, from a very young age, has had nothing but loss in her life and that's obviously affected her. On the DLC, the thing that I did the most was, uh, in-game branding. So like, fake mall logos and, I even did like fake Twitter accounts and all this stuff for-- ‘cause she, it takes place in two malls. There's like the Colorado mall, and then there's the Boston mall where she's spending time with, um, Riley. So the Colorado mall, which is the, the mall where you're, um, trying to scavenge stuff to help Joel, um, is an older mall. Uh, we decided that it would it would have, it would have been one of those. And this was like, not just me, by the way. This is a. very much a group effort in, in these decisions. Um, as anything is.
CHRISTIAN: I'll take credit for it.
ALEXANDRIA: [laughs]
CHRISTIAN: It was all me. Yeah. [laughs]
ALEXANDRIA: Um, so that, that mall was made to feel more like, I dunno if you remember malls in the early ‘90s that, like, were like a little darker inside. And like, in some places, people still smoked in them, and there was a lot of tile everywhere. Um, so it was meant to feel a lot older. Um, and then the, whereas the, uh, Boston mall, which was I think called Liberty Gardens or something like that, that was supposed to be like one of your high end, like it would have been, at the time, in 2013, like a, a very nice, very new, updated mall, um, that had new stores. It was really interesting, the stuff that I went through with trying to come up with these, because like, a, a lot of the branding that I ended up doing would be stuff that, like, I wouldn't make that choice to do as a designer. Like, if I was doing someone's branding, I wouldn't use the fonts that I use and I wouldn't, like, I did, on purpose, bad kerning in some things ‘cause it was like, well that's what real malls look like, like, and you want to make it so that it doesn't feel too, like, too noticeable. Um, so that was more, Colorado mall was very kind of like, you know, mom-and-pop stores that had cropped up in this mostly dead mall. And then the Liberty Boston mall was like, there was like a doll store, similar to like an American Girl doll store, and like a, there's a, like a Swirls yogurt, like frozen yogurt, which has obviously been popular since whenever, but was very popular back in 2013 when it hit like its peak of everyone getting really excited about it. Um, so yeah, it was like, a lot of thought went into that. The type of stores that she was going into, um, and what colors were being used in the two malls, how those color palettes, uh, played off of each other so that you would know-- since we were jumping around in time-- you would know like, okay, now I'm in the Colorado mall versus the Boston mall.
[ELLIE: Hyah!
RILEY: You ready for this?
ELLIE: What’re we doing? Whoa whoa whoa whoa. Riley, come here!
RILEY: No you got this! Go!
ELLIE: What the heck, this is awesome!]
CHRISTIAN: I feel like Left Behind is, had I not played it after playing Part I, I would maybe think like, what a delightful little indie game this is, of wonderful moments. Um, instead I knew at some point the other shoe was going to drop, um, [laughs] where these wonderful moments would not be bookend with a rainbow and, and, um, Riley and Ellie saying, uh, See you tomorrow, um, to one another as they go their separate ways. And I think a moment that kind of led up to that, as we kind of build to this crescendo if you will, um, is, uh, Riley and Ellie dancing. Ellie's Walkman can, that Riley finds a way to play the music from it. I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I saw, was it concept art that you made-- that you drew of that moment of the two of them dancing? Is that right?
ALEXANDRIA: That was actually after the fact. That was, um, like, it's kind of fan art I guess. But it was for the Gallery Nucleus show that we did for the 30th anniversary.
CHRISTIAN: It’s such a beautiful moment. What inspired you to make that piece?
ALEXANDRIA: Oh yeah. I mean it, it's probably my favorite. Her and Riley dancing. And yeah, I mean, it's something that we hadn't seen as-- in a AAA game. Like, I, I feel like we've seen stuff like that in like indie, indie games at the time, but, um, to see like, you know, a lesbian couple, uh, like that in a, in a AAA-quality game was, like, I'd never seen anything like that. So it felt very special. And I know it meant a lot to so many fans. Like, we have a very, um, a fanbase that runs the gambit, a lot of ages, a lot of genders and everything, but we particularly at the time, had a very strong fan base of young women. And so, to see that played out in a game that they love, by a company they loved, I know meant a lot to them. And so that meant a lot to me that we could really touch people like that and, um, make them feel seen in a, in a game of this quality.
[RILEY: Here--
RILEY: What is it? ...Hey. What’s wrong?
ELLIE: ...Don’t go.
ELLIE: Sorry.
RILEY: For what?
ELLIE: ...What do we do now?
RILEY: We’ll figure it out…]
ASHLEY: That's my favorite part of the DLC and that, and the video game when they, when they play the turning and Riley's like, all right, I'm going to break this down for you.
[ELLIE: Man, for a second I thought I was gonna play it.
RILEY: Close your eyes... You’re playing as the unstoppable, claw-wielding yet drop-dead gorgeous Angel Knives! She stands on the edge of the temple.
RILEY: Your opponent, Black Fang, steps out of the temple. Round one starts. Black Fang rushes towards you. He throws a double punch in your direction. Jump up!
SFX of fighting
RILEY: He grabs you! Mash punch to break free.
SFX of button mashing and Angel Knives punching
RILEY: Yes! Fuck him up!
SFX of button pressing and Angel Knives hitting a special move
ANNOUNCER: Finish him.
SFX of multiple button presses
RILEY: The screen turns dark. Angel Knives blades begin to glow. She pierces his torso AGAIN and AGAIN until his heart flies right out of his chest!
SFX of Black Fang yelling in agony
RILEY: She winds back her leg and roundhouses his head CLEAN OFF.
SFX of Angel Knives kicking Black Fang's head off
RILEY: A geyser of blood covers the ENTIRE playing field.
ELLIE: Ohh, nice!
RILEY: THAT is an ultra kill. YOU WIN.
ELLIE: Fuck yeah, I win!
RILEY: Not bad for your first game. So?
ELLIE: It was alright.
RILEY: You loved it.
ELLIE: Yeah, I kinda did.]
It's, it's beautiful. And even when I replayed it recently, I was like, Oh, I wish this would have ended differently, but then I know we wouldn't have the first game. But, um, she taught Ellie a lot in the time that they knew each other of like, yeah, life is hard, but try to find some happiness somewhere. And Riley's doing that the whole game. She's like, come on, get out of bed. Let's go. Like, I want to take you someplace really super awesome. I remember Neil sort of breaking down what was going to happen in that moment. And, you know, for me, shooting the scene, I was just standing in front of, you know, like a big block of wood and then just like pretending that I'm doing something and then like, you know, eyes closed. And then, uh, Yaani was like talking to me about the game and doing her whole bit. And I'm just, I literally was just kinda standing there like acting like I was playing with controls with my eyes closed and smiling every once in a while. And, um, you know, trying to sort of visualize what I think Ellie was seeing. But when I actually played it in the game, I was like, ah, this is such a good idea. It's such a cool game mechanic because it's, it also shows how much Riley cares about Ellie because she knows she, she has been wanting to play something like this and she gives her that experience in her own way. And that's why you're like, ah, Riley's the fucking best and you're, and it makes all the sense why Ellie has feelings for her and she loves her and she wants to hang out with her all the time. And, um, I just, I love that moment because I, it's, it's such an act of kindness and happiness that Riley wants to give Ellie. And I think all of those, those moments, you know, with the carousel or with the Halloween masks or even in the photo booth and those moments feel so special because we as an audience know they're so few and far between. Uh, I want her to have these moments. And I love this DLC so much. And so much of it is because of flopping the game mechanics of like the water gun fight or taking the brick to have it be like a contest of breaking the windshield. And it's, I think it's very, very clever. And, but also story-wise, it lets us know so much about Ellie and, and how important Riley was to her and her life before meeting Joel and her life before being defined by being immune, which I feel like when that happens, you know, which we don't see at the end of the DLC, but we know that she never turned and we don't know the horror that she saw with Riley turning and her nothing happening to her and how she got out of there. It's, there's a lot left that's unsaid that we can only imagine how hard that must have been. The weight the Ellie will always carry with her of like, well why didn't that happen to me too? Or like I wish I could have done something. I wish I could have helped her. I wish we would have left earlier so she could still be here. And I think the fact that they kissed right before they ended up getting attacked, I think it's, that was the first time Ellie experienced that it was their first kiss or first crush. And that probably doesn't happen a lot in this world of connecting with someone, um, physically and emotionally like that because it's intense. It's, it's too hard to sort of have that, you know, and, and Joel talks about this with Tess in the game of like, you know, getting close to someone is as good for one thing and it's, I don't know, maybe it's Bill who says it.
[BILL: Let me tell you a story. Once upon a time, I had somebody I cared about. And in this world that shit’s good for one thing: getting you killed.]
Basically if you have that connection with someone, it's, it's dangerous. Um, and yeah, I think Riley's, her first love will always be her first love and she carries her with her. And even when I was shooting the second game, um, I was thinking a lot about a lot about Riley, yeah, it was something that was with me. And so I definitely think that Riley will always be with Ellie.
You know, in any form of art, loss plays a really big role. It's one human emotion that we've all experienced in some way. And I lost my dad when I was 16. And it's so weird at that age to try and think of the important conversations to have, that you know are going to be your last. And he, we knew he had cancer, so we had, we had time with him. Um, which I'm thankful for that because it wasn't something that was, um, abrupt. I mean, it's all shitty. But… [sighs] you know, it was, it was, we tried to sort of talk about all of the things that we thought would be important at that time, and... what do you say? Like, what do you say at that age? And, and I think about it all the time. I wish for, I wish for more time because I would say different things now. I would ask different things. But I mean, it's, it's, it's crazy at my age to think that I only had 16 years with him, and that I've lived more life without him than I had with him. But the impact he made was paramount on my life. I mean, my dad was, was everything. But I miss him like hell every single fucking day. It just doesn't go away. But the feeling that you can't go on goes away, thankfully. [laughs] But the missing piece that was once there, that loss, that never goes away. And I think everybody can relate to that. So just like you or anyone else, you carry your pain with you, so does the character that you're playing. And I also think that's why I was so drawn to this, this particular story. Because everyone, everyone in this game has lost something, and they're trying to move forward because they have to and they're desperately searching for meaning and connection, which is what we're all doing.
[RILEY: Ellie!
A Runner rushes ELLIE, tackling her to the ground. RILEY fires at it, killing the Infected before being attacked by one herself. ELLIE comes to her defense, stabbing the Runner, then slashing its throat. RILEY pushes the dead Infected off of herself. The two catch their breath.
ELLIE: I think it’s clear.
RILEY: Ellie… Ellie, your arm.
ELLIE looks at her arm and drops her pocket knife. She wipes the blood away and sees the bite marks.
ELLIE: No. No, no, no, no, no.
RILEY: ...There’s some more stuff over there you can break.
ELLIE: What are we gonna do?
RILEY: ...The way I see it, we got two options. Option 1… we take the easy way out. It’s quick and painless. I’m not a fan of option 1. 2… we fight.
ELLIE: Fight for what? We’re gonna turn into one of those things.
RILEY: ...There are a million ways we should have died before today. And a million ways we could die before tomorrow. But we fight, for every second we get to spend with each other. Whether it’s two minutes or two days… we don’t give that up. I don’t wanna give that up. My vote… let’s just wait it out. You know, we can be all poetic and just lose our minds together.]
<<CLOSING MUSIC>>
CHRISTIAN: Next time, on The Last of Us Podcast...
[JOEL: We don’t have to do this.
ELLIE: After all we’ve been through.
ASHLEY: I love that that’s the story, because we’re so flawed as Humans
DAVID: You and your friend killed how many men?
GUSTAVO: I think love is the thing that connects all of it.
ELLIE: Tell them that Ellie is the little girl that broke your fucking finger.
NEIL: There’s this whole philosophical debate of how far are you willing to go to protect your child?
JOEL: You keep finding something to fight for.
ELLIE: It can’t be for nothing]
<<CREDITS>>
The Official The Last of Us Podcast is produced by PlayStation and Spoke Media. It’s hosted by me, Christian Spicer and written by Brigham Mosley.
Our Sony PlayStation Team includes Charlie Yedor, Cristian Cardona, and Carrie Surtees.
Our Naughty Dog Team includes Arne Meyer and Scott Lowe.
Our production team is Carson McCain, Kelly Kolff, Tre Jones, Reyes Mendoza and Aleisha Force.
This episode was mixed by Evan Arnett, who contributed additional sound design and music.
Today’s episode included interviews Neil Druckmann, Troy Baker, Ashley Johnson and Alexandria Neonakis.
Executive producers are Alia Tavakolian and Keith Reynolds.
Thank you for listening.