[JOEL: So, is this everything you were hoping for?
ELLIE: It’s got its ups and downs. But, you can’t deny the view though.
JOEL: We don’t have to do this. You know that right?
ELLIE: What’s the other option?
JOEL: Go back to Tommy’s. Be done with this whole damn thing.
ELLIE: After all we’ve been through? Everything that I’ve done? It can’t be for nothing.]
CHRISTIAN: Welcome back to The Official The Last of Us Podcast. I’m Christian Spicer. Last episode we left off with the incredible DLC chapter, Left Behind. We cut back and forth from Ellie’s present, caring for an unconscious Joel, and her past, having just been bitten by the Infected alongside her first love, Riley. We see the depths of Ellie’s feelings for these two fixtures in her life. And how there’s nothing she won’t do
[SFX of arrows flying
for the ones she loves…
[SFX of ELLIE walking
ELLIE: This won’t last very long.]
TROY: Winter is my favorite. Again, that, that, that beautiful moment when we see the snow on the ground, the beautiful, little cute bunny, uh, and then just the arrow, and that has fired, shot by, by Ellie. And then my, one of my favorite moments in the game is when Ellie's just standing there and you push forward on the stick-
[SFX of ELLIE beginning to walk]
And you realize, Oh, now I'm in control of her. And the last time that you were in control of anybody besides Joel, was Sarah. And so for that to come full circle.
NEIL: There was something really thrilling when we were focus testing the game. You know, we do these play tests weekly by the time we wrap up production and make sure people aren't getting stuck at areas and to find bugs and they would get to that part. And this is what I love. It's so unique to our medium cause you never get this kind of statement anywhere else where it's like, and that person would go, Oh my God, I am Ellie. Um, and all of a sudden like they play differently. They're there. And even though like mechanically there's a lot of overlap. Some things are different with Ellie. Um, but just the way they kind of approached a world was very different for them as this character. And all of a sudden you create all this new empathy and connection to this character that you didn't have before. Uh, and it's just something really beautiful about our medium, about, about games. So the, the story right is about this unit of these two characters and how I think on their own they would have perished. Um, Ellie may be like from not having Joel's protection early on, um, but I think Joel would have died emotionally without Ellie. I think she, she would have never brought the good that exists within him out. It's funny as as we're here talking about winter and we haven't touched on David at all...
[DAVID: Name’s David. This here’s my friend James. We’re from a larger group. Women, children. We’re all very very hungry. Well, uh, maybe we could, uh, trade you for some of that meat there. What do you need?
ELLIE: Medicine. Do you have any antibiotics?
DAVID: ...We do. Back at the camp. You’re welcome to follow us back--
ELLIE: I’m not following you anywhere… Buddy boy can go get it. He comes back with what I need, the deer is all yours. Anyone else shows up--
DAVID: You’ll put one right between my eyes.
ELLIE: That’s right.
DAVID: (to JAMES) Two bottles of the penicillin and a syringe. Make it fast…]
NEIL: With Sam, like Ellie confides in Sam, that her biggest fear is ending up alone. Is not having someone and here she finds herself in winter alone. I mean Joel is unconscious and here is this man that we're purposefully painting him, like, you know, he's very kind and understanding...
[ELLIE: I’ll take that rifle.
DAVID: Of course.]
NEIL: And he's always honest with her. He never lies to her. Um, and yet there's something within Ellie that just is repulsed by this guy and she doesn't fully ever fully trust him. Um, so there's something that even though Joel has done all these horrible things, I think Ellie always recognized that there's good within him. And I think that's why she was so drawn to him even early on in a way that she's not to David.
[DAVID: You know, you really shouldn’t be out here all on your own.
ELLIE: ...I don’t like company.
DAVID: I see… What’s your name?
ELLIE: Why?
DAVID: Look, I understand it’s not easy to… trust a couple strangers.
ELLIE: (sighs)
DAVID: Whoever’s hurt, you clearly care about them. I’m sure it’s gonna be just fine.
ELLIE: We’ll see…]
CHRISTIAN: And let's talk about David because, uh, woof right? How did you go about creating this, seemingly “nice guy” cannibal?
NEIL: I remember at some point during production, Nolan North was at the studio. And while he was at the studio I'm like, Hey, let me show you a part of the game. And he's like, okay cool cause he had didn't really seen much of what we were doing as this other project. So I showed him that whole sequence and he was like, Oh my God, this is awesome. This is amazing. Like you guys are doing this whole other game here while we're making Uncharted Three? And he's like, you've got to give me a role in this. Like something, just let, let me, let me be in it. And I'm like, all right Nolan North wants to be in this game. I'm going to give him, I'm going to give him a role. Nolan North’s going to play the cannibal King, like the opposite of Nathan Drake. Uh, but actually because he was put in it, I wanted, I wanted to do him right by it. Like I wanted to give the character interesting meat, interesting dimension. And I think it's because of that, that the character became a lot more interesting. And I was like, okay, how do you humanize a cannibal? That was a lot of the conversation I had with Nolan. I was like, I don't want you to play the bad guy. I want you to play someone that has to make difficult decisions to help his people survive. Um, of course, the one big flaw that this guy has is that he's, um, drawn, attracted to Ellie as well. He doesn't have this cannibalism. He also has this other aspect and we wanted to say he's got this underneath all the facade of like niceness and good charismatic qualities that he has there is, there is something kind of brewing and once like he can't have some thing, then he starts losing it. But we wanted to hold off on that as long as possible and present him as humanly as possible. So one of the tricks we have, or I like, we want to get you to trust someone is to, okay, well we have really tense mechanics. We have combat that like puts you on edge that you can, we could kind of ratchet up the difficulty where you barely survive and you literally have to rely on David to survive a sequence.
[SFX of the sounds of Infected rushing the cabin as ELLIE and DAVID fire away at them.
DAVID: Hope you know how to use that thing.
ELLIE: I’ve had some practice.
DAVID: No matter what we have to keep them out.
SFX of gunshots
DAVID: Nice shot, kid.
DAVID: You weren’t kidding. You’re a better shot with that thing than I am
ELLIE: Aagh!
DAVID: Hey, kid! You alright?
ELLIE: (recovering) I’m fine.
DAVID: More Clickers. Come on, door’s this way!
SFX of Clickers approaching and David shooting at them
DAVID: Hey, kid.
ELLIE: Yeah?
DAVID: You know, I think we did it.
ELLIE: Like we killed all of ‘em?
DAVID: I’ll check the bridge. Listen.
ELLIE: No Infected.
DAVID: No Infected. What I tell you? (chuckles) Alright. Let’s head on back. Check on that buck of ours.
DAVID: (exhales and chuckles) You handled yourself pretty nice back there. I say we… make a pretty good team.]
NEIL: And that's what we came up with. The whole kind of cabin sequence where all these Infected are coming in and you and David have to survive together and he saves you multiple times in these very specific ways throughout that sequence. And you're like, okay, well this guy, maybe he's not that bad even though I'm getting like a weird vibe from him, but, he can, he can save me. Um, and then of course he reveals who he is and that he's been in charge of these people that you ran into in the university and you fought and killed.
[DAVID: (scoffs) No, you see, I believe… that everything happens for a reason.
ELLIE: Psst. Sure.
DAVID: No, I do… And I can prove it to you. Now, this winter. It’s been especially cruel… A few weeks back, I... sent a group of men out. A nearby town to look for food… Only a few came back. They said that the others had been, uh… slaughtered by a… crazy man. (chuckles) And get this. He’s a crazy man travelling... with a little girl. You see, everything happens for a reason.]
NEIL: But he doesn't hold Ellie responsible because Ellie's a kid and he sees the strength that Ellie has within her. And that's part of the draw for him is recruiting her is like bringing her over to his people. Ellie rejects that. And then it was important to play Ellie protecting Joel first by like being on horseback. And drawing them away from the house where she has kept Joel unconscious and was giving him the medicine that she just got.
[ELLIE: Joel?
ELLIE: I only managed to get a little bit of food. But… I did get this.
ELLIE: Move your arm.. Oh… Here we go…
ELLIE: Sorry… All done. That’s it...You’re gonna make it.
ELLIE: (whispering) Oh, fuck! They tracked me.
ELLIE: I’m gonna draw them away from here… I’ll come back for you.
SFX of horse Breathing
ELLIE: (whispering) Go…
CANNIBAL 1: Are we even sure she’s here?
CANNIBAL 2: Yeah, more horse tracks down the fucking street. She’s here.
ELLIE: There’s the exit.
DAVID: (struggling) Relax… I’m keeping you alive here.
DAVID: There you go. There you go.]
TROY: The character of David. Tell me one thing that David did that was wrong. You tell me one thing that makes him the bad guy. Uh, I can state a case that David is… he and Joel could be mirror images of each other. Um, they both are looking out for those that they love and protect. The both of them are willing to care for Ellie. Um, and the only time that he actually takes action against Ellie is when she tries to kill him. Now, I think that, uh, we see his truest nature, [laughs] that you don't, David is not someone to, to fuck with, but I don't think that he's just like, snow blinding her the entire way. I think that he genuinely is like, come, come be a part of us. I'll, I'll look after you. I'll, I'll make sure that you're taken care of and yeah, you know you’re probably going to eat Peter over there eventually.
ASHLEY: I mean, it's some heavy shit.
CHRISTIAN: [laughs]
ASHLEY: So it's-- [laughs] Like, I remember I read all of those scenes and I was just sitting at TGI Friday's like, Oh my God, this is intense and I can't wait to shoot it.
[DAVID: How are you feeling?
ELLIE: (exhales) ...Super.
DAVID: Here…
DAVID: You should eat… I know you’re hungry. Been out for quite some time.
ELLIE: ...What is it?
DAVID: ...It’s deer...
ELLIE: ...With some human helping on the side?
DAVID: ...No. No, I--I promise. It’s… just the deer meat.
ELLIE: ...You’re a fucking animal.
DAVID: Please tell me your name.
ELLIE: You’re so full of shit.
DAVID: Heh… on the contrary. I’ve been, uh… been quite honest with you… Now I think it’s your turn. It’s the only way I’m gonna be able to convince the others.
ELLIE: Convince them of what?
DAVID: That you can come around… You have heart. You’re loyal… and you’re special.
ELLIE: ...Oh…]
NEIL: And then, you know, when David captures her and tries to threaten her and tries to convince her, and then it turns, convincing is turned to threats when she like breaks his finger, um, and he can't bring her over. And that just drives him mad.
[SFX ELLIE bites DAVID's finger
ELLIE: (recovering) Augh… fuck…
DAVID: (recovering) You stupid little girl! You are making it very difficult to keep you alive… What am I supposed to tell the others now?
ELLIE: Ellie…
DAVID: What?
ELLIE: Tell them that... Ellie is the little girl… that broke your FUCKING FINGER!]
CHRISTIAN: Where did rage come from for you?
ASHLEY: Oh boy.
CHRISTIAN: --um, ‘cause I imagine it's a different place than, than loss and, and hurt. Or is it the same, and it's just then unleashed?
ASHLEY: Boy, that's a good question. Um, I think for me-- and Neil and I kind of always joke about this and, um, I, not to reveal too much about myself, but I can be a very angry person. And that's an emotion for me as an actor that is very accessible for me. [laughs] I'm not saying that's a positive thing, but I know that that comes from loss for me. Because it's, it's this place in me that had someone taken from me too soon and that rebellious anger is still in me, and I think it will always be there, and I kind of don't want it to go away because there are times where I feel like I want it there. And sometimes it's not great, but I think most of the time that's the part of me that is able to defend myself and stand up for myself in situations.
[DAVID: Wakey, wakey, come on!
ELLIE: Let go!
DAVID: I warned you.
ELLIE: I’m infected! I’m infected!
DAVID: (sarcastically) Really?
ELLIE: So are you. Right there. Roll up my sleeve - look at it!
DAVID: I’ll play along.
ELLIE: What’d you say? Everything happens for a reason, right?
CANNIBAL: What the hell is it?
DAVID: She would have turned by now, it can’t be real.
CANNIBAL: Looks pretty fucking real to me.
SFX of ELLIE attacking CANNIBAL and running outside
DAVID: (struggling) You’re easy to track.
DAVID: How did you do it? That’s alright. There’s nowhere to go. You want out?
ELLIE: (whispers) I gotta get these keys.]
NEIL: And that's what makes these beats interesting. Is that to say, okay, when Ellie's captured by David and he's chasing after and he had this whole boss fight in this restaurant that's on fire and you're playing that, and you're feeling the tension of that and you're feeling that you're, um, you don't have the equipment necessary to defeat this guy like Ellie's this kid. And here is a guy that has a gun and a machete and he's coming after you. Uh, and then Joel comes back to life and you're playing as Joel
[JOEL: Oh Christ… I gotta find her. I gotta find her.
JOEL: Holy shit... Ellie.]
...finding out where Ellie is and you're feeling that tension of like, okay, I want these two characters to get back together and we're jumping now back and forth at faster and faster rhythm. Almost like some song that's picking up speed, um, that you're imagining, okay, here's how it's gonna play out. Ellie's going to be just cornered by David and right before he kills her, Joel's going to burst the door and save her and kill David and uh, and then they'll, they'll be okay. Uh, but it was important for us not to do that, to say, no, no. Ellie's going to save herself. Like she actually saved herself before Joel gets there and actually became more interesting that Joel saves her emotionally and not physically. That again, those roles have shifted where like in the past, Ellie was the more emotional, mature one and was able to lean on Joel and now Joel is having to take on that role instead of the physical protector that we saw at Ellie is just as capable. So it was important for you to play all that all the way through and feel that.
TROY: So then we get to that moment where Ellie is, yes, she has shot people, um, but it is all been in um a defense. But this moment, she, she got David. She incapacitated him. And where we find, where Joel finds her is the moment where she transcends just incapacitation, and it goes into a punishment. It goes into this cathartic, I'm taking this out on everybody. This is for Riley. This is for Tess. This is for Sam. This is for Henry. This is for my mom. This is for everybody. This is for this world. David's face becomes the punching bag for all of that.
[ELLIE: (struggling) Fuck you!
DAVID: You think you know me? Huh? Well, let me tell you something. You have NO IDEA what I’m capable of.]
ASHLEY: It was a part of her journey that she kind of needed to go through to see that she could take care of herself. And, you know, Ellie... “winning” this battle shows that she can take care of herself without Joel. And we needed to see that and the audience needed to see that. And she's taking all of the knowledge that she's learned from Joel and the life experience that she's had up until this point, and… it shows how strong her will to survive is that she just doesn't give up. I love that Joel is there for her though. Not to fight her battles, but to be there for her in the aftermath.
[JOEL: Ellie!
JOEL: Stop. Stop.
ELLIE: Don’t fuckin’ touch me!
JOEL: Shh. Shh. It’s okay. It’s me. It’s me. It’s me. Look. Look. It’s me.
ELLIE: (crying) He tried to--
JOEL: Oh, baby girl. It’s okay. It’s okay.
ELLIE: Joel…
JOEL: It’s okay now. It’s okay.]
TROY: So, uh, Neil had framed this moment. He was like, I don't care what you say, just whatever you would say to comfort her, but, the, I want you to know that the only thing I need you to say is “baby girl." Um, the fact that that is, now we see Joel the father again, um, whether it was a skinned knee from soccer practice with Sarah, to this moment, there's one thing that I, that Joel knew how to do very, very well, and that was to comfort in the time of, of pain.
ASHLEY: And it's such a big moment for also the audience too, to see that of, like, these two people that have, have gone this whole time without really, you know, um, not showing affection to each other in the ways that we do in the world. And you see that and you're like, Oh, he's also breaking down, all of the walls come down for him. And to see that, and she recognizes that as well. Like, Oh my God, you're taking care of me in this moment and you are here. And it's both of them finally making that connection.
CHRISTIAN: Why was that line “baby girl,” why was that so important for this moment in the game?
NEIL: ‘Cause it's the point where she has become his daughter. She's not a replacement for Sarah, but she's just at this point she's just as important. Uh, and that phrase has become a symbol for, um, that for him. It was just something to help her get strength to get on her feet and get out of there. And it felt like that's not as important than just letting them use the moment kind of sit and letting the music takeover. Cause the music now is doing the heavy lifting. I remember we talked about Joel's watch and how that becomes a symbol for the player. So we don't have to have characters talk about things. They could just, we could direct an image and then that, that takes your mind. The music is doing the same thing. So when, when Sarah dies, um, there's this theme that we end up calling All Gone that plays and then we play it again here when Joel is embracing Ellie and says baby girl, and we play it again at the very end when he's carrying Ellie out of the hospital. And it's done that way by design because we want your mind to subconsciously go to the moment Sarah dies and string these moments together without us being explicit about it. I feel like maybe we haven't talked enough about Gustavo's score and how much it's helping the emotional impact, but that music, that, that piece of music is so beautiful. Uh, and so moving, it felt like we didn't need any more words.
GUSTAVO: My name is Gustavo Santaolalla and uh, I am the composer of the music for The Last of Us. The moment that I met Neil and then Neil actually told me the story and the how, and I could sense how different this game was from any other game that it existed before. And it really was a, I mean, a no brainer. I mean, I knew from the very beginning when I talked to Neil, knew that I wanted to be involved in the game.
CHRISTIAN: How would you describe the character of the score as it fits into The Last of Us?
GUSTAVO: Yeah. Well I think definitely it has an element of melancholy and a certain element of despair. But confronted with this situation of that really this, this, uh, uh, sort of apocalyptic eh, situation. There is a strong human element to the music, to an emotional, uh, human connection, eh, that I think I'd like to, I wanted to, to project in the music. But, the important thing for me was to, to have this at least emotional content that actually didn't go into simply something sad. You know, I'm, I'm talking about especially in things like, uh, like all gone for example - that particular theme.
<<ALL GONE PLAYS>>
In other themes like the theme, you know? Right. That has some epic connotations too.
<<THE LAST OF US THEME PLAYS>>
But, uh, more like a human epic, more like an epic of the everyday man, you know, and not so like an epic of eh, I don't know, like a gladiator movie, you know what I mean? I will create pieces that I really don't know to what character they belong. They are inspired by them, you know, not necessary. I think some of these things, it, uh, Neil actually had more clear than I, you know, but I, I do know that, for example, for me the ronroco
<<RONROCO PLAYS THE THEME MELODY>>
with it's a tenderness and is almost a feminine quality. I had a connection with the ronroco with Ellie, you know, and I had a connection with eh, the, the six string bass,
<<BASS LINE PLAYS>>
you know, was Joel, uh, and I guess the guitar kind of connects those two worlds. I will say basically that in the timbers I will connect the ronroco, eh, with Ellie and this six string bass, uh, with Joel. And then the guitar kind of like in between both of them.
<<GUITAR LINE PLAYS>>
GUSTAVO: I knew that that it was, is going to be something, a very personal score. I mean I think all my work. It has that element, but so the connection with the guitar and the ronroco is a actual one. I mean those are my, my main instruments so, eh, naturally, you know, I, I was driven to them, you know? The thing is what are, what to do with them. But, but the six string bass, that was a discovery because I've never used that instrument really before. And this is a... there's a whole, you know, breed of basses modern basses that have more than four strings usually, you know, the basses is an instrument known for having four string things, right? This base that is a base that comes from the 60s is a, is a fender bass six string that actually is an octave lower than a guitar. It's a very peculiar bass. And that was something that really wasn't planned. It just came by accident in a way because a, I didn't have a bass, uh, at hand. So that was a fantastic discovery because I've never used that instrument before. I mean I have instruments that also, that I get sometimes and they're there waiting for their moment and that was definitely the moment for that, that instrument. But one of the things that I love about Neil's writing and Neil’s conception, and this really extends to The Last of Us Part II also, you know, is this thing you know, about really creating real life people. And, you know, people in life are good and are bad too. You know, there are not many, you know, usually of course there are people that are just truly mean people, you know, eh, but, but, uh, you know, in general and majority, you know, we're all full of contradictions and sometimes we can be good and sometimes we can be bad or we can be good for some people, bad for others, you know, with our actions and our thoughts and eh, and I think that's what makes this, uh, stories so rich.
CHRISTIAN: How did you look to incorporate those contradictions into the soundscape?
GUSTAVO: Sometimes, you know, I juxtapose something that can be very, very, uh, very spiritual and very soothing with something that is very brutal, something that is really rough. You know, I love working with, uh, uh, the roughness too you know, the, the, the textures are or sounds are noise. You know, I mean, one of the things that I love is to actually, you know, people try to avoid the noise of the amp. For example, you know, that you have a 60 hertz or something that is there, you know, or, uh, or the noises in the guitar, you know, between notes when you slide from one note to another one. Those are things that I treasure. The same thing with mistakes. You know, the concept of mistake, I take it totally in a different light for me mistakes sometimes can be great assets. Mistakes as somebody sometimes said, you know, can be a hidden intention. I, I always pay attention to a mistake because a mistake can be just a mistake. Or it could be, you know, a new route that you've never could have imagined. So in the juxtaposition of timbres that can be soothing and at the same time aggressive, eh, with another instrument. That those contradictions they use of a full track full of, you know, just packed with, with sounds to something that is absolutely a void of everything and has just one single instrument. The use of silence, the space, you know, it's a silent that becomes eloquent. All those things I think somehow express these contradictions.
CHRISTIAN: What do you hope people remember about the game, um, and their experiences with it as after they've experienced it?
GUSTAVO: One thing I'm, I'm sure it's common to all of the people is that they all have been emotionally touched by the game and that I think that that's a very different thing and something that The Last of Us can be, you know, proud, you know, to, to achieve, eh, it's something that will be definitely remembered. Cause I, I, I sometimes, you know, well perhaps, you know, 20, 30, 40 years, you know, I'm, I'm, you know, not going to be here but people will hear that the theme, you know. And will say, Oh, I remember when we used to play, you know, The Last of Us, and everything that will moved, will definitely connect with that emotion that they had, that and that emotion in this case in particular, because the relationship is an emotion that is connected to love. And I think that's what people are going to remember, that love and that, that connection that the characters had between themselves and that they had with the characters and with the game.
[JOEL: Ellie… Ellie!... ELLIE!... Did you hear me?
ELLIE: No... What?
JOEL: Look. Hospital. This is where we get off. Let’s go, kiddo.
JOEL: Heh. You feel that breeze, huh? I tell you, on a day like this, I’d just sit on my porch… pick away at my six string. You know, once we’re done with this whole thing, I’m gonna teach you how to play guitar. Yeah, I--I reckon you’d really like that… What do you say, huh? ...Ellie, I’m talking to you.
ELLIE: Huh? Oh. Yeah, sure. That sounds great.
JOEL: Look at that. Another city, another abandoned quarantine zone. There’s that hospital the Firefly mentioned. C’mon, kiddo.
JOEL: Everything alright?
ELLIE: Yeah, I’m fine.
JOEL: (sighs) You just kinda seem extra quiet today.
ELLIE: Oh… sorry.
JOEL: No, i--it’s not… (sighs) It’s fine.]
TROY: Okay. Turn the corner. ‘Cause now we're about to go into a completely different place. The next section of the game is not so much about how Joel has changed, but now how Ellie has changed. Joel definitely demonstrates a different behavior. He's a little bit more optimistic. I can teach you how to play guitar. Um, we're going to get there. And, and, and he's talking about all of the positive, optimistic things, giving her hope. Joel is finally speaking about the future in terms of hope. And it's almost through the filter of, of, it's, it's, it's sounds so far away. Not only just what he's talking about, but even just almost the way that it's treated, because Ellie is so far away. And if you even notice the distance between the two characters is further than it's been. And we have that moment where the thing that you've been doing throughout the entire game the entire time is like, okay, we have this thing, come help me move it over. I go up, I boost you up. This is what we do.
JOEL: Here we go… Ellie? ELLIE?
ELLIE: (distracted) What?
And you turn and she's not there. And you have to remind her to do that.
JOEL: The ladder. C’mon.
ELLIE: Right… Oh my god
JOEL: What is it? ...Ellie? ELLIE?
ELLIE: You gotta see this!
JOEL: What is it?
JOEL: What the hell is--
ELLIE: You kidding me?!
ELLIE: C’mon! Hurry up!
ELLIE: You see this?
ELLIE: Shhh, don’t scare it.
JOEL: I won’t. I won’t.
ELLIE: What are you doing?
JOEL: (to giraffe) It’s alright… C’mere, c’mere. Hey, fella.
JOEL: (to ELLIE) Hurry up. C’mon. Go on.
ELLIE: Hey there. (laughs) ... So fucking cool.
ELLIE: Aww, where’s it off to? Here, come on. Let’s go.
JOEL: S--Slow down, kiddo. Heh.
ELLIE: C’mon!
ELLIE: Hurry up! C’mon, c’mon, c’mon!
ELLIE: Oh, man! Wow… look at those things.
JOEL: So… this everything you were hoping for?
ELLIE: … It’s got its ups and downs. But… you can’t deny the view though.
JOEL: We don’t have to do this. You know that, right?
ELLIE: ... (scoffs) What’s the other option?
JOEL: Just go back to Tommy’s. Just… be done with this whole thing.
ELLIE: After all we’ve been through? ...Everything that I’ve done… (sighs) It can’t be for nothing.]
ALMUDENA: So, um, my name is Almudena Soria and uh, The Last of Us was my first game as an Animator and Naughty Dog. So it's very special to me. I worked mostly on Ellie as a player, as a non playable character, as well as the giraffe sequence. It's such a special game for I think for everyone that worked on it. Um, it was something kind of unexpected until people started playing it. Um, cause we're so close to it, we, you know, work many years on it and until everything comes together with cut scenes, with dialogue, with graphics, lighting, once you actually played it recently at home and it's just like, it still holds up.
CHRISTIAN: A big part of what makes it so special is that marriage of the story with the technical aspects in the animation and the things that you and the team brought to the table. I’d love if you could talk to me about how you think the animation contributed to the story and then how it contributed to the overall experience of the game--
ALMUDENA: Um, so for me, what we do with the animation is, uh, first of all, we keep it grounded. Uh, cause that's the type of game The Last of Us is. And keeping it grounded, make the players feel more connected with their characters they're playing. That's definitely the, the core of the animation style we're going for. Uh, and then we tried to make the characters look like what they're feeling. So starting with the sequence of, uh, the, the giraffe level, basically, um, we see Ellie that she's like, she has a very closed posture. She's holding the backpack. She's looking down. That transmits like what she's feeling. We created this gesture system, uh, for The Last of Us, which we still use now cause it's really, really cool to create these moments. So for the animation as well... We want to, uh, as I say, we want the players to feel what the characters are feeling. And in the case of you're playing Joel at this time, so when you boost her, she's not responding. It's like what's happening? And you kind of probably feel a little frustrated. It's like that's what he would feel like. Then you boost her and then she shoots off and it's like what's happening? So Joel feels curious about where Ellie's going and the player feels curious too, cause it's this, you know, she waits there and say what's happening? We see a glimpse of a shadow and it's like, what is this? So that's where we want to do with the animations the characters to feel and engage with, uh, with what, what the characters and the players are worn.
CHRISTIAN: And we talked about that moment where Ellie's kind of closed off and she's on her backpack and kind of you know um looking at the ground. I'm curious if you have anecdotes or, or insight on moments where it was the opposite, where Neil has described this first game as being primarily about love and kind of how you and the team address showing that physically with Ellie as, as that relationship blossoms and grows.
ALMUDENA: Yeah, we have a lot of, uh, moments. Uh, after the giraffe sequence, we have this pretty heavy dialogue where, uh, Ellie brings Sarah, uh, Joel's daughter that had been murdered. So that’s very very important because I feel that Joel cares about Ellie so much because of the loss of his daughter. So at that moment Ellie say, Hey, I have something for you. And she, and she has these, uh, picture of Joel and Sarah, which is, you know, I choked in that moment and Joel did too.
[ELLIE: I got something for you. Maria showed this to me back at the camp. I stole it. I hope you don’t mind.
JOEL: Well no matter how hard you try, I guess you can’t escape your past. Thank you.]
CHRISTIAN: Ok, um I have to bring this up because it’s one of the most iconic scenes in the game; talk to me about the giraffes.
ALMUDENA: It was a very interesting evolution on that level. I remember when Peter Field, the designer of that level, um, we have level kickoffs in the theaters, so every member of the team that is involved in that level, um, we get together and they, uh, the design, uh, the designer presents what the level flow would be like. So he started or sitting down and he said, presented this level, no combat, no traversal and just giraffes. Everyone was very skeptical of that working. Cause it's like, no, no combat? Like nothing? All right. So he was a true believer. I think Neil was too, obviously. And once things started coming along together, everyone was like, Ohhhh, okay. You know? It's an opportunity to give the player some rest, enjoy the beautiful overgrown, um, environments. Um, the wildlife that the lack of humanity, uh, you know, brings out there. And you know, I'm not sure why giraffes were chosen, but I think it was the best choice because it’s such a majestic animal that everyone, I think everyone likes and so unexpected that when you see it, you are really surprised.
CHRISTIAN: I'm curious how the game affected you and kind of what that experience was for you when it was all said and done.
ALMUDENA: So the first thing I thought, it's like, I don't want to play any other games that is not like this one. Seriously. It's like, it's, it's like living in the story. So I really enjoyed that and I since then I try to find games that are more like that so I can, you know, live the characters there, live the life they’re living. Uh, so yeah, as a human being it’s, it's just how, and also everything started coming together at the end, which, you know, we have all these levels that like scattered, like you kind of know what's going on. Until you sit down and start playing through the whole is when you realize, Oh wow. This is a story, this is a game. The beginning of it's like levels that are not even online or dialogue is not in, like cutscenes is still not in or like in very rough form is like the last year or six months where everything is together, the lighting comes on, the sound is on, the effects. It's just.. .and it happens in a very short amount of time. Everyone is working constantly, constantly, constantly. But when everything comes together, it's where you realize like, wow, yeah this, this is something else.
CHRISTIAN: So Joel and Ellie make their way down the stairwell...
[ELLIE: Look, I know you mean well. But there’s no halfway with this. Once we’re done, we’ll go wherever you want. Okay?
JOEL: Tsst. Well I ain’t leavin’ without you. So let’s go wrap this up.]
CHRISTIAN: They’re heading to the hospital...
[JOEL: Well this place takes me back.
ELLIE: How so?
JOEL: It was right after everything went down. I ended up in a triage just like this. And everywhere you looked, just… saw families torn apart. (sighs) Whole damn world seemed to have… turned upside down in a blink.
ELLIE: Is that after you lost Sarah?
JOEL: (sighs) Yes, it was…
ELLIE: I… can’t imagine losing someone you love like that… Losing everything that you know… I’m sorry, Joel.
JOEL: That’s okay, Ellie.
ELLIE: This time it’s gonna be different. I just know it.
JOEL: What do you mean?
ELLIE: They’re gonna be there. The Fireflies. I’m sure of it.]
They find themselves in a flooded tunnel, hopping from makeshift platform to platform when...
[JOEL: Ellie! Ellie, give me your hand! Give me your hand before--]
They’re pulled underwater
[SFX of Underwater
JOEL: C’mon…
JOEL: C’mon, c’mon…
FIREFLY: Hands in the air!
JOEL: She’s not breathing…
FIREFLY: HANDS in the FUCKIN’ AIR!
JOEL: Come on, Ellie…
SFX of Joel getting hit]
TROY: But then, ultimately what happens is that, um, Joel is saved by Ellie, um, in the bus when he goes into the water, and in that she dies. Like, d-- they, she's, she drowns. Uh, and then again, we see, he’s like, no, don't, don't bring me to this point where we're finally good and I'm going to lose her again. And then we wake up in the hospital room-
[MARLENE: Welcome to the Fireflies… Sorry bout the-- (motions to her head) ...They didn’t know who you were.
JOEL: And Ellie?
MARLENE: She’s alright. They brought her back.
MARLENE: You came all this way… How’d you do it?
JOEL: (sighs) It was her. She fought like hell to get here. (exhales) Maybe it was meant to be.
MARLENE: I lost most of my crew crossing the country. I pretty much lost everything. And then you show up and somehow we find you just in time to save her. Maybe it was meant to be.
JOEL: … (sighs) Take me to her.
MARLENE: You don’t have to worry about her anymore. We’ll take care--
JOEL: I worry. Just… let me see her, please.
MARLENE: You can’t. She’s being prepped for surgery.]
TROY: ...and then of course, the whole revelation of, that this plot was, um, always designed to be like that. You basically just transported our, uh, sacrificial lamb. So, you didn't have to save her. You know, we, we we're gonna, we're going to kill her anyway. You, the girl could have gotten here dead or alive. Um, and just the, the pure Sisyphean, uh, frustration that comes from that is like, what have I, what have I done all this for? It was like, it was for nothing. This was, uh, just this rush of nihilism, uh, at, at, at Joel, and but now he has stakes in it. Now he, and now it really matters. And it's like, all right, you guys done fucked up. Like, this is, you have awoken the beast because you have, you have activated now every part of me.
[JOEL: The hell do you mean “surgery”?
MARLENE: The doctors tell me the cordyceps, the growth inside her, has somehow mutated. It’s why she’s immune. Once they remove it, they’ll be able to reverse engineer a vaccine… A vaccine.
JOEL: But it grows all over the brain.
MARLENE: ...It does…
JOEL: ...Find someone else.
MARLENE: There is no one else.
JOEL: Listen, you are gonna show me where she--
MARLENE: Stop… I get it. But whatever it is you think you’re going through right now, is nothing to what I have been through… I knew her since she was born. I promised her mother I would look after her.
JOEL: (hushed) Then why are you letting this happen!
MARLENE: (hushed) Because this isn’t about me! Or even her. There is no other choice here.
JOEL: (scoffs) ...Yeah, you keep telling yourself that bullshit.
MARLENE: ...March him out of here. He tries anything, shoot him… Don’t waste this gift, Joel.]
NEIL: So Marlene and Joel, the, there are similarities that they both care for Ellie, um, and Marlene we’re say- we're revealing that knew Ellie's mom and made this promise to Ellie's mom that she would watch over this girl. And now she has to go back on that promise in order to fulfill the Firefly's whole kind of objective, which is to restore mankind. Um, this is the thing that she's dedicated her life to means killing the daughter of someone she cared about. I know Marlene didn't know this is the consequences of bringing Ellie here. Um, she is surprised by that as well. However she accepts it in the way Joel doesn't and she's wrestled with it and now she's already come. By the time Joel shows up in the hospital, she's already come to terms with that decision. Which is why she feels like she makes the mistake of keeping Joel alive because she sees here's the one person in this hospital that can understand what she's gone through, except he doesn't because he doesn't agree with her final decision. But her mercy is what actually ends up killing her. And I guess her other sin is that she didn't run this by Ellie. Like neither one of them. They're both playing the protective parent that thinks they know what's best for this kid, uh, and the world. Um, but neither one of them is asking the kid, what do you think is best for you?
[ETHAN: Go on… Move. I said move! What the fuck are you doing? Keep walking… I said keep walking!
JOEL: Where is the operating room? I ain’t got time for this. Where?
ETHAN: (straining) Top floor. The far end.
SFX of JOEL shooting ETHAN
FIREFLY: Gunshots! Search the floor!
JOEL: That should buy me some time.
JOEL: Sweet Jesus…
KARI: (startled) Doctor?
DOCTOR: What are you doing in here?
DOCTOR: I won’t let you take her.
DOCTOR: D--DON’T come any closer…
SFX of JOEL shooting DOCTOR
KARI: No!
KARI: You fucking animal!
JOEL: Come on, baby girl. I gotcha. I gotcha.
JOEL: Oh shit…
JOEL: Shit!
JOEL: I’m getting you out of here, girl. I gotcha. I gotcha. Come on…
FIREFLY 1: Go around to the other side!
JOEL: We’re okay… We’re okay. We’re okay.
FIREFLY 3: I’ve got him in my sights!
JOEL: I said get back!
SFX of gunshots
JOEL: Come on. Come on.
MARLENE: You can’t save her! Even if you get her out of here, then what? How long before she’s torn to pieces by a pack of Clickers? That is, if she hasn’t been raped and murdered first.
JOEL: That ain’t for you to decide.
MARLENE: It’s what she’d want. You know it. Look… you can still do the right thing here. She won’t feel anything…]
NEIL: You have so many games and movies and books and the other stuff in this genre where it's, it's about saving the world and the hero at the end saves the world. And it just doesn’t feel real. And it doesn't capture something as interesting about human or, right the, the, again, this theme of like this unconditional love a parent feels for their child. Is that it could be psychotic, um, that it could drive you to insane things of like how protective you can be of your child. So this idea of that, that you would get to the end and then choose to not save the world felt so more honest to me about like what we would do in this situation and that the, there, it's ultimately like there is no cure. It's not about that. It's about saving the ones we love. And playing someone that could easily be perceived as the villain that at the end of it, you could be the villain. I know a lot of players saw it that way. Um, and I like the idea that they were seeing it that way and that people make the arguments for Joel as the bad guy. And to me it's like you can make the same argument with equal weight, that the fireflies are the bad guys and that here are people that are willing to kill a kid in the hopes of making a vaccine. And it, then it gets to this whole philosophical conversation that I love. It's like, do the ends justify the means? At what point in pursuing good have you become bad? Um, and there are no clear answers here. There wasn't like, okay, well here's the line. It's like if you kill 10 people to save a million, then that's okay, but if you kill a hundred, that's too much. Like, no, I don't know how you draw those, those lines. Um, uh, so I, I just loved that for Joel and hopefully by now the player, they understand that like that doesn't matter. Like Ellie could save a million people or she could save two people. She could save all of mankind. That doesn't matter. That's his daughter. The, there is no price you can put on your kid's head. It just doesn't exist. I think for Ellie, she was willing to accept at any cost bringing meaning to this journey. Even when they get to the very end right before they're at the Firefly hospital, uh, Joel tells Ellie, let's go back. Uh, we don't need to do this because he's afraid of like. Yeah, you're already seeing he's, he doesn't, he doesn't care. He doesn't care about what this would mean and it's just putting her at risk for one more day. Why do you like, let's go back. We could start a life. Uh, and she, she rejects that, right? She, she's just says after everything we've done, after everything I've done, everything we've been through, it can't be for nothing. Right? She, she needs to find meaning here. And she ultimately, well, whether she does or doesn't, I guess it's a little bit open to interpretation, but she's, she's left not with what she thought this would lead to. Um, right. She thought this would lead to a cure and then she wakes up in the car and is told there is no cure.
[ELLIE: What the hell am I wearing?
JOEL: Just take it easy. Drugs are still wearing off.
ELLIE: ...What happened?
JOEL: ...We found the Fireflies… Turns out there’s a whole lot more like you, Ellie. People that are immune. It’s dozens, actually. Ain’t done ‘em a damn bit of good neither… They’ve actually st-- They’ve stopped looking for a cure. I’m taking us home… I’m sorry.]
ASHLEY: When I first played through the game, I thought, I was like, Oh, I absolutely would've made the same decision as him. And when I played through it recently, I was kind of able to see for the first time why so many people were, um... not shocked by his decision, but couldn't believe what he did. And, whereas before, I was like, how, how, who would not do that? For me, Ashley, I don't think I would... I don't think I would do anything differently than what Joel did. Because I think about, I don't have any kids, but I have seven nieces and nephews. And if, if this happened with any one of them, there's no way I would leave them on that table. I would steal them and kill every single person that was in my path to save them. But I don't think I would lie to them, I think that is where the fault was with Joel. But I get why he lied. Because he can't live with her being disappointed in him. And I think he knows that she'll be upset and possibly never forgive him. And I think that's the same part of himself that pushes people away. You know, he lives his life with a lot of rules and sets up these parameters to protect himself, and he still is doing it until the end. But I think he has realized, wow, here's someone in this world that I care about and they care about me. And that is more important to me.
[JOEL: Well, looks like we’re walkin’. (sighs)
ELLIE: Alright.
JOEL: It’s actually kind of pretty, ain’t it?
ELLIE: Yeah…
JOEL: Don’t think I ever told you, but uh… Sarah and I used to take hikes like this. I think, uh… I think the two of you would have been, would have been good friends. Think you really woulda liked her. I know she woulda liked you.
ELLIE: I bet I would of.
JOEL: Just a little bit further now.
ELLIE: Hey, wait… Ugh… Back in Boston… Back when I was bitten. I wasn’t alone. My best friend was there. And she got bit too… We didn’t know what to do, so… she says, “let’s just wait it out. Y’know, we can be all poetic and just lose our minds together.” I’m still waiting for my turn.
JOEL: Ellie--
ELLIE: Her name was Riley, and she was the first to die. And then it was Tess… And then Sam.
JOEL: None of that is on you.
ELLIE: No, you don’t understand.
JOEL: I struggled for a long time with survivin’. And you, no matter what, you keep finding something to fight for. Now, I know that’s not what you wanna hear right now, but it’s--
ELLIE: Swear to me… Swear to me that everything that you said about the Fireflies is true.
JOEL: ...I swear.
ELLIE: ...Okay.]
NEIL: I think Ellie wants to know the truth, right? Which is why she's been mulling these, this question is this idea of like, that she wants to make Joel swear to her that he's telling the truth because something definitely feels off to her. Um, but then she also got this thing that she's been looking for the whole time. It's like someone that's not going to leave someone that's going to love her unconditionally. And can you reconcile those two things? Um, can you be with someone that has wronged you in this way or that has lied in such a way to make you lose trust? And there's this, again, this whole philosophical debate of how far are you willing to go to protect your child as far as Joel's arc and this idea of taking him to the end of the line. Like, what's the most intense, what's the most extreme act he would have to take? Because every time there's an obstacle like right, the characters will take a path of least resistance, whatever the, the least they have to do to achieve their goal, that's where they're going to do it. So you put an obstacle. So they have to take a more extreme choice and obstacle that have to.... Okay, now he's like, Tess has died. He's sacrificed that. Okay, now he's sacrificing his safety and now he's sacrificing, uh, he opens himself up to loss in a way that he hasn't before. So he's starting to sacrifice himself. Okay. Sacrificing all of mankind to say, okay, where do you go after that? It's like, Oh, he's willing to sacrifice his relationship with her to save her. That's the ultimate sacrifice that he could make, is like, he's lying to her knowing that this could be it. She might never trust him again, but he's got to do that so she doesn't go back to that hospital and try to get the cure.
ASHLEY: I love that that's the story. Because we're so flawed as humans, and that the hero of the story, the main character in the story, Joel, is so flawed and we need to see that. Because when we see it, we're like, Aagh, yeah, I can relate to that because I'm flawed too. But this particular game and this experience was absolutely the greatest thing I've ever worked on. I loved the story and the, the, the cast, the crew, um, Naughty Dog is so amazing to work with. And I haven't quite worked on something, still to this day, where when I was on set, I was inspired constantly. And... as, uh, you know, an artist in any form, you're always looking for that thing to sort of, um, be inspired. That muse. And it's a little selfish, you know, that you need that thing. Um, but this was absolutely that thing for me. And it's, it was such a credible experience, that when it was over, um, it was hard. It was hard. I experienced a loss with that. And, you know, when, when they talked about making the second game, I couldn't wait. I was chomping at the bit to get back in Ellie’s shoes.
TROY: I would offer this story. I was in Indiana, at a convention, and a father comes up to me and he says, I got that game. And I started playing it and I got to the prologue. I was like, yeah? Uh, and he goes, I have a, I have a daughter, and at that time, she was a baby. And he said, uh, I got to the end of the prologue and I put the controller down. I went to my daughter's room and I held her and I cried… And I said, I understand. And he goes, No, you don't. He said, I never went back to that game. And he said, every day that I came home, I sat, or I would walk into my house and I would look and I'd see where that controller sat. In the same place that I left it. He goes, six months went by and I finally decided, all right, I'm not gonna let this thing beat me. And I picked up the controller and I played, and I finally get to the giraffe moment. And I put the controller down again and I cried. And he said, it dawned on me that sometimes we have to go through the hard times in order to find our giraffe moment.
NEIL: I mean, I would love for The Last of Us to have that kind of impact on people's lives that they remember where they were and the characters have stuck with them. And some of like the moral, morally ambiguous situation they've been in have raised some interesting questions for them in their lives. Just that is incredible. And I guess seeing some of that, but right now, years later you could like see that there's communities on Reddit that this game has brought together. There are people that got married because they were both fans of The Last of Us and that have named their first daughter Ellie. So just the fact that this game has been able to connect people in such a positive way has been incredible. And we now have people that work at naughty dog that have gotten into games and have come to work at Naughty Dog because the game inspired them to make video games. And again, I can think to games that have done that for me. I couldn't ask for anything more. Right. That's like, it's the most incredible feeling that you're able to now somehow inspire someone that will make the next great game, um, is incredibly humbling and just inspiring.
CHRISTIAN: Next week on the Official The Last of Us Podcast:
ASHLEY: I mean this game absolutely just shows you how hate can absolutely wreak havoc on a family and on an entire community of people.
LAURA: You know there’s endure and survive physically, but what does that mean for your soul? What does that mean mentally? How do you live with yourself?
HALLEY: Well love is hopefully one of those things that feels more universal.
TROY: They didn’t need to make a sequel. But the story needed to be told in Part Two and to not have granted the opportunity to continue would have been a grave disservice to this story to these characters and to the world.
CHRISTIAN: But before we dive into the second game, over the next few days we’ll be dropping three shorter episodes, which we’re calling Artifacts. We’ll be talking with Actor/Cosplayer Mica Burton, tv writer Marc Bernardin and film director Nia Dacosta about their experiences playing the game and how The Last of Us has affected their lives and the world of gaming at large.
Be sure to keep an eye on your feed for those episodes and our official The Last of Us Part II discussion.
The Official The Last of Us Podcast is produced by PlayStation and Spoke Media. It’s hosted by me, Christian Spicer and written by Brigham Mosley.
Our Sony PlayStation Team includes, Charlie Yedor, Cristian Cardona, and Carrie Surtees.
Our Naughty Dog Team includes Arne Meyer and Scott Lowe.
Our production team is Carson McCain, Kelly Kolff, Tre Jones, Reyes Mendoza and Aleisha Force.
This episode was mixed by Evan Arnett, who contributed additional sound design and music.
Today’s interviews included interviews with Neil Druckmann, Troy Baker, Ashley Johnson, Gustavo Santaolalla, and Almudena Soria.
Executive producers are Alia Tavakolian and Keith Reynolds.
Thank you for listening!
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