ASHLEY: When we first meet Ellie in Jackson, she's 19. Um, she's going out on patrols. She is a little bit more confident in who she is. Um, she's learned how capable she is. She's learned so much from Joel and she's absolutely a capable fighter, uh, hunter. Um, she knows her strengths and her weaknesses and knows how to strategize and use those to her advantage.
And she's a big contributor to the community in Jackson.
[ELLIE: (exhales) Hey.
JOEL: Hey.
ELLIE: ...What’s up, Joel?
JOEL: Just checking in… Folks are, you know, talking about how impressed they are with...you and how well you’re helping out.
ELLIE: That’s good.
JOEL: Yeah, I want-- I wanna show you something. Just give me one second...
ELLIE: What’s this?
JOEL: Well, (exhales) some folks call this thing here a “gee-tar”.
ELLIE: Funny.
JOEL: ...You wanna hear some?
ELLIE: Okay.
JOEL: Okay. (scoffs) ...Promise me (sighs) that you won’t laugh.
ELLIE: I won’t laugh... I won’t.
JOEL: I’m trusting you. (scoffs)]
<<OPENING MUSIC>>
CHRISTIAN: Welcome back to the Official The Last of Us Podcast; I’m Christian Spicer. Last episode we skimmed the surface of The Last of Us Part II, talking with the creatives who brought us this incredible game. But today we’re taking the full plunge, diving into deep story points and talking about one of the two playable characters, Ellie. So yes, warning: we are moving into full spoiler territory here. If you haven’t finished the game yet, proceed with caution.
NEIL: It's funny. In some ways they both found what they're looking for. In some ways it's more true for Joel than it is for Ellie. Uh, they found a place to settle down to find society that values them., Joel has in the journey of The Last of Us has like, uh, as cliché as that sounds, learned to love again, it's like learn to accept that love comes with pain and has brought everything that comes with love into his life. but at a cost where now his relationship with Ellie is a bit strained. Ellie can tell that, you know, something happened in that hospital that is off. And even for no other reason that so much of her journey and she experienced so much loss
by the end of the first game, uh, and it felt meaningless to her because in her idea of like, it wouldn't, it would all be worth it if at the end of it there can be a cure. It could be something positive that comes out of it. And the only thing that came positive out of it is she got this father figure, right. Everyone that she loves constantly like comes in and out of her life except this one dude that has stuck around no matter what. So she got that. But now what does she do? So she's kind of aimless and she doesn't know what her purpose is and she's trying to find it. Um, but she's got this thing that's kind of neck nagging away at her, that was like, what happened? What happened? And she's like, she believes she could bury it, she could suppress it, but it keeps coming back up. Um, and that's what we see in the flashbacks with each flashback. Like it comes more and more to the surface that can, she, she can't help but go find out herself. It's like the trust is not quite there.
ASHLEY: At this point, Joel and Ellie's relationship, umm… Ellie knows that Joel lied. And not only that, he's killed the people that could have saved humanity. And that weighs on her.
And also at this point she hasn't met anybody else that's immune, or at least they haven't told her. So she also carries the weight of knowing that her death could've saved people, and knowing something that huge, uh, could have been your contribution to the world, I mean, how would you even find your purpose in anything else? Cause you're like, well, if that was my, that was my purpose, everything else feels... less than,
[JOEL: Making a vaccine would have killed you so I stopped them.
ELLIE: Oh my god.]
Um, but that chance was taken away from her and it's, it's a, it's a confusing thing, and it's a confusing emotion because she's also dealing with the fact that Joel wanted to save her because he loves her and they connected and they became family because of this journey that they were on together and she that, but it's intensely confusing. And I, I can't, I can't even imagine what it would be like to have that responsibility of, well, the world wouldn't be like this anymore if I'd given my life. Um, but I believe, at least how I was playing it throughout this game, is I, she carries that guilt with her - always. And, that kind of guilt can rip you apart, and it can make you angry and sad and frustrated and can cause, uh, anxiety and depression.
NEIL: I think to the challenges, the moments that were really hard to pull off and um, Joel's death is one of them is one that was a hard scene to write. And it was a hard scene to prepare for and it was a hard scene to shoot and then we tried to pace it out properly and trying to make it land, um, was really hard. I remember like the last few weeks of production on the music for it, which is kind of like this beating, almost like a heartbeat that just gets more and more like grimy and intense as the scene goes on. So it's like there's this dread that's building-- Whereas like with Sarah's death, it ended up being I think sad. Um, you'd like you feel for Joel and you feel the tragedy of it. And while this is also tragic, there's um, Sarah's death is surprising where Joel's death feels inevitable. But, I think even with knowing what's happening and you tell me what you think, I'm really curious to hear it, but, um, we decided just the way it was coming together, I was like, Oh, this scene is more about dread.
CHRISTIAN: It felt it was, it was tragic, but it felt, I think as you mentioned it to me, Joel was living just to die. Like Joel's life was going to catch up with him. Um, whether it's when he was a smuggler with Tess or you know, even I could see it have been a conflict in Jackson, like the character of Joel, at some point his actions were going to have repercussions. Um, and so witnessing it and in that way it was something where, yeah, I literally knew it was coming. But in those moments, you see, and I think the actors performances, the realization of I'm, you know, I'm Joel and this my brother Tommy or I forget, maybe I'm Tommy, it's my brother Joel. And it's like, Oh.
[TOMMY: Hey, I’m Tommy, that’s Joel, what’s your name?
ABBY: Abby.
TOMMY: Abby. You okay?]
CHRISTIAN: The way Abby reacts in that moment, you're like, Oh shit, it's going down.
And then I loved the moment and I imagine there was some debate on it, but experiencing it from Ellie's perspective where the, you know, kind of the ringing in her ears and the shock and the scream and it's not clear. It's emotion, which, you witnessed that... And I feel like I was very much in Ellie's shoes at that moment. So even though I knew it was coming, it still landed like a bag of bricks.
NEIL: Yeah, it’s funny again you about iteration and how important iteration is to building something. That's good cause it's like so many early versions. Ellie was not there. Ellie just saw the aftermath and Tommy had to like tell her everything that happened and then I can, I don't remember whose idea it was or how it came to be, but it was like once someone said, Oh, Ellie should be, they're like, Oh, that became, Oh, of course this whole thing is predicated on her feeling, the most intense hatred. She's got a, she's got to see the act. Um, which I know is, it's cruel but essential for the story.
ASHLEY: It’s what sets off the journey. And I think when I first heard that Ellie was going to be there for that, um... I didn't want that for her, but at the same time I knew that that's what needed to happen for the story. And... we all knew that it was going to be heartbreaking and horrible for Ellie to see that. I think I just personally for me, I was like, Oh, I don't want to do that. Um, which I think is exactly why they needed to do it.
TROY: Neil jokes about the fact that we debated how this happens and I was so fearful of how this would be presented. And I, I, I remember sitting in Neil's office on the couch next to him and he starts telling me how, um, how this whole thing goes down with Neil. And I think I told this the first time, I'm sitting there with notes and I'm diligently taking notes. I'm like, okay, fantastic. So, you know, trying to be a dutiful student and then we get to the moment and we kind of move forward. And I just stopped. I was like, man, I just, I need a second. Because it was literally as if someone just told me, uh, that, that it, that someone very near to me had just died. And I realized that I hadn't grieved. It's almost like finding out someone is terminally ill and you go through that process and you're like, okay, we know this is going happen and we prepare for it in the, and you go from like, maybe, maybe he won't, maybe, maybe this is all a bad dream and maybe you'll get better. And then they're like, no, you're in hospice and you're shooting the scene and then it's done.
CHRISTIAN: I'd love to talk about that part a little bit more where Tommy and Joel save Abby's life. What would they have needed to do, Tommy and Joel, to prevent Abby from killing Joel in that moment. Like that's her life's mission is to go kill this human being who then the only reason she's allowed to accomplish that singular focus is because he saves her like --
TROY: Dude. Okay. This is why, this is why this game, and I'm not saying the first one or the second one, I'm saying this, this experience. That's why it's Part I and Part II. It's not a sequel. This thing is the entirety of the story that we're telling. Moments and conversations and characters echo from [The Last of Us] into Part II and it was even one of the earliest lines that you ever heard from the part one in the trailer, which was Earl Brown, when you get to Bill's town and there's this conversation with bill and he goes, “once upon a time I had someone that I cared about and I found that thing is only good for one thing. That's to get you killed.”
This is what happens when you care. And it's the same thing of why it is calling back to Sarah without him having to reference Sarah. It was like, because you didn't care because you weren't diligent because you weren't aware. People will get hurt and you can't care about people because they will die and when they die it will, you will be hurt so you don't care. So you see Joel saying that's why he rejects Ellie in the very beginning. It was like, I'm not taking her. I'm not taking her. She’s, she's just cargo. This is how we can rationalize if something goes wrong. It's just cargo. Worst case scenario, the cargo gets lost. Worst case scenario, the cargo dies and that's how Joel justifies it to himself. There's this constant reminder to Joel of every time I care, every time I show my humanity, it catches up to me. But it's the same question that is asked and posited philosophically at the end of the first game. Why not just sacrifice Ellie for the sake of mankind for the sake of humanity? And the reason why I feel he's totally justified in that is because if one life -- this is, this is a philosophical argument, the cable car argument. Um, the degrees of, of tragedy and depravity that we will allow ourselves to indulge in is, is completely dependent upon the context of our own experiences for Joel sacrificing her is sacrificing humanity. So to not care about someone is just as bad as being a murderer now. Now he understands. Now he is working, he's trying to do everything he can to make penance for the wrong that he did to Ellie. And that man is making his bed up. He's doing the dishes, he's taking out the garbage, he's doing everything he can. I’ll save this person's life if it makes me right with her. I see I've changed. I've gotten better. I'm not the same person that I was before. I'd rather make a wrong decision, but show that I've grown. And that's why he's like, “it's you. You're the one that takes me down.” It's just that it was this moment of recognition of like that's when the other shoe drops, when he'd starts looking around and realizes, I let my guard down and I don't know my exit and I'm surrounded.
[TOMMY: Joel.
JOEL: Y’all act like you heard of us or something.
ABBY: Because they have.
TOMMY: No!]
It's that moment from when the lion is, is trapped.
[ELLIE: Joel. Joel, get up. Joel, fucking get up. Please stop! Please don’t shoot.]
ASHLEY: Man, that scene I think I was... boy, I'm getting emotional. Um, I, I think I was, uh, I was dreading shooting that scene. And it's… it's the scene in the game that is the most devastating of course, because we are losing a character that we all deeply care about.
Um, but when we started shooting that scene, it was, it was awful. Like, I, I didn't, I didn't want it to be happening. And I know that that was the story, but I just, I, it was, it was a tough week on the job. [laughs] And it’s hard to describe because in some ways on autopilot because I was just kind of trying to protect my emotions in a weird way. But at the same time as an actor, you have to let all that out. And I didn't, I didn't know what my reactions were going to be. I mean, obviously the scene called for yelling and being upset and crying, but I didn't realize how much anger was going to be coming out. And, uh, you know, obviously had to be restrained, and I was like, you guys better be restraining me because I'm gonna fucking get up and I'm going to go try to do something if you don't hold me down. And I think that was incredibly helpful. Cause you can hear the strain and boy, that was a, that was a tough day.
TROY: I'm reminded of what Neil told me and with this scene with Sarah is just look at her and that's, I was compelled to look at Ashley. Um, so similarly in the way that, Hannah really shepherded me and pulled me through that scene with Sarah. I would say that, um, if that moment is impactful and means something to anybody, uh, it's, it's entirely because Ashley pulled me through that scene.
<<MUSIC>>
NEIL: Joel's death was by far the hardest one. Um, it was the hardest one to figure out how far we take it. Um, and I always knew like we wanted to find a line and then just go a little past that line because it needs to feel really uncomfortable, cruel to get to get the kinds of feelings we're after for this experience. This was such a long shoot. It's like the longest shoot cinematic shoot for any game we've done. And being, feeling really nervous about how that scene is going to be. And I especially know the attachment Troy has to Joel and be feeling the most nervous about it. How is he going to feel about this scene because so much of this scene is making sure Joel, Joel, Joel dies in this kind of like an unceremonious way, um, and he's disrespected by these other characters. And first drafts of the, the game had a lot more mention of Sarah. We wanted to tie Sarah and, right. Cause obviously Sarah's life and death had so much impact on Joel and who he is. Um, and we had like, once he got his head bashed in, his last word was like, “Sarah.” And we're just thinking like his mind is like, right. It's not quite operating in the same way as you got neurons firing and he just can't help but think about his daughter and not only Troy, but a few people in the team felt like that was a little on the nose that it could read like, oh, we're just trying to really force the parallel between Ellie and Sarah that he's looking at Ellie and he’s saying Sarah and short like that. Uh, and I said like, “you know what, like I promise you we'll get a version without it. But I want to try it.” And that's the thing that I try to always do is like if someone on the set has an idea, I'm always wanting, I always try to make sure we have enough time to try it.
Like cause like, cause I don't know, like I can't predict what magic will happen when you try something fresh. If someone feels strongly about an idea, I'm like, okay, let's try it. As long as you're willing to try everything I want to do. Um, and to Troy, to his credit it was like, okay, I'll give you everything that's on the page, but I want a version where like I say almost nothing and I'm like, okay. And that's the version that's in the game.
ASHLEY: I think that is a huge breaking point for her. And... he held sort of a, this important place in her life, possibly the most important and he was taken away from her. Taken away before their relationship was fully able to heal. And those are all of the emotions that Ellie sits
with, and for most of the game. And…man, [laughs] shooting was tough. This game was really tough to shoot, and it was a lot harder working on this game than the first game. It's, uh, cause the scenes were intense, and we had to go there, we had to go deep and we had to really dive into that or else the game wouldn't work. Um, but it does take a little bit of an emotional toll. You know, it wasn't a, I, but again, I, I would do it all over again. I love this game so much and I love this character. And after eight years of playing this character, I, I'll go anywhere with her.
CHRISTIAN: I don't know if this takes us to a lighter place or not, um, when Joel and Ellie are, it's a flashback and they're in the museum
[SFX of JOEL and ELLIE walking in the museum
ELLIE: (gasps) Did you know this was here?!
JOEL: Oh you don't like it, um we can head back.
ELLIE: (laughs) Oh, shut up!]
TROY: Oh man
CHRISTIAN: and it's the birthday and the tape of the rocket launch
[ELLIE: (laughs and makes rocket launch sounds)
JOEL: Happy birthday, kiddo.
ELLIE: What is this?
JOEL: This is a thing that took a mighty effort to find.]
CHRISTIAN: And then also Ellie's recognition of that gift and what it meant and what it took. Um, and to see her be able to be a child again, if just for a three second countdown,
Like it's such a beautiful moment that if all I saw was that I'd be like, what is this a hallmark movie, you know, like, but because of the world it lives in, it's such a deeply tragic moment.
TROY: So keep in mind, um, I love even how, and um nothing that was written, uh, and crafted in this scene from the top down from Neil and Halley. Um, everybody, the team is, is haphazard. It's not like, like I guess it happens in a museum. Like I guess they've stumbled upon this. Everything is so like down to the, literally the pixel is, is um, is ordained.
[JOEL: Why don't you tell me what you like about it.
ELLIE: um, I don't know - people in your time, they had it easy.
JOEL: Hmm (laughs) I guess relatively speaking, sure.
ELLIE: I mean, they didn’t need to go to space but they did it anyway. That’s ballsy.
JOEL: (laughs) Ballsy. Alright, kiddo now I get it.]
TROY: So they build us this set and because we want to, we have to be able to capture those movements and obviously going into the capsule, just you would never be able to do that now. Right? So there's, there's this beauty that the, and fortune that this desecrated world now affords us is like, you, you, you, you may not look the velvet rope is this, you know, thing that now bans you from. It was like, I can go touch a Monet if I want to now. I can do all of the things that I wasn't allowed that somehow the, um, the social constructs that we had and, and the, they were there for a reason, but there's like, those don't exist. There's no speed limits anymore, man. It's, it's just the world is truly wild again.
[ELLIE: So cool.
JOEL: How does it smell in there?
ELLIE: Like space...and dust.]
TROY: That allows us to be able to explore the places that we never would have been able to go.
[SFX of ELLIE and JOEL opening up the space capsule. ELLIE laughs.
JOEL: After you.]
TROY: And that to me was just a, it was an absolutely, truly beautiful, beautiful moment. Um, and again, it's just a, it's a Testament to Ashley that that moment was put in there. The reason why it feels so real is because that's a genuine desire of Ashley. I remember we were flying from LA to London for a press event, for the first game. And it was during the Perseite Meteor Shower and we were going to try to see if we couldn't see it from our, from our, our windows on a plane. We just sat there, I think pretty much the whole of the flight and just talked about this game about where we were at, what we wanted. And I was like, what did you want to be when you grow up? What do you want to do? And that's when she told me, I think she had told Neil before, she's like, I want to be an astronaut. Still kind of want to be a, maybe, maybe I'll become an astronaut. So that moment exists, um, for Ashley in the same way that Neil giving me the opportunity to sing and play guitar in that is a moment for me. He's an incredibly giving director and writer and I don't think I'll ever be able to, to pay him back for what he's given me.
[JOEL: ...Happy birthday, kiddo.
ELLIE: What is this?
JOEL: This... is a thing that took a mighty effort to find.
ELLIE: (scoffs)
JOEL: Take it.
JOEL: Close your eyes. It--It’ll be worth it.
ELLIE: (exhales) Okay.
The sounds of the rockets get louder as she begins imagining she’s there. The rocket launch fades into Gustavo’s score. Ellie sits in the experience for a moment.
SFX of birds
JOEL: ...I do okay?
ELLIE: Are you fucking kidding me?
(They share another laugh)
JOEL: ...You’re welcome, kiddo. (chuckles) ...Look, what do you say we, uh… keep looking around, huh?
ELLIE: Yeah, I guess.
SFX of JOEL and ELLIE getting out of the space capsule
JOEL: Hey… welcome to Earth.
ELLIE: (grinning) Yeah.]
ASHLEY: That is... that's, that whole sequence is probably one of my favorite parts of the game.
Shooting that scene was really special because Troy and I didn't actually get to shoot together a lot during this game. And when we did, they were tough emotional scenes where Ellie was frustrated and mad and hurt and angry. And that scene when they get into the capsule, it didn't, it didn't have any of that. And it was just a, a brief respite in, um, connecting together again in this loving space. Um, but there's this element of sadness underneath. And Ellie’s getting older and clearly at that point has already started to question Joel's actions, or is starting to sort of find some, uh, some of the story doesn't add up. Also you feel the, the sadness that Joel is feeling because of the loss of innocence that Ellie is, is already starting to lose. I, I love that moment and it was, that day I just remember both of us were just so happy to be doing that scene, but also we were sad, cause it's kind of a sad scene, and especially when you're going back when you see that scene in a flashback. And it's just, it's, it's hard, it's hard to watch. But I love it.
NEIL: So the idea with The Last of Us with the first, and the second game is we want to explore these pockets of humanity and how they're surviving. Right? There are the Hunters, there are the quarantine zones that are very oppressive. There's Bill living out on his own. Um, there's the WLF that's this very militaristic force that things are gonna change the world one bit at a time, and yet they can't finish taking over the city. There's the Seraphites that think right they’re following their prophet, and God's order is to restore some balance of the world. And then there's a place like Jackson, which is like doing their best to create some semblance of the humanity we had, um, the society we had before the outbreak. Um, so bright, they have rules, they trade. Um, maybe it's a bit more like a socialistic system than the capitalist one in that they don't really have a currency. But they, all right, they take care of each other. They watch movies, they have festivals where they dance. Oh by the way, before I forget, I'm going to go on a tangent. Like one of the things we cut pretty late that was pretty cool is that whole dance sequence. Um, there used to be a playable park right before it, so you'd like Ellie's like being kind of drinking on her own and like some alleyway you can hear the festival happening in the distance and it was playable. So you're walking in the snow and you walk outside the church and there's this whole fair and they have like little games and kids running around and you would like play darts and do all these mini games and like kids pretending to be a clicker and they tie like a blindfold on themselves and they chase each other and you could play with them. You could go to like the back of the church and find these like two teenagers making out. It was, and it was all pretty done. Like a lot of it wasn't super polished - it was like 80%. Um, and we just felt for pacing purposes, it just slowed things down too much at that point of the story. And it was heartbreaking to cut all that out. Um, but that's one of those tough decisions you have to make some times. Um, anyways, I went on a tangent, but it kind of talks about the place that Jackson is like you could have a fair where people play. Like you could have kids playing snowball in the morning and um, you can go and like play with them. But it's walled off and everybody knows beyond those walls is intense danger. So there are people that have to go on patrols and protect this way of life. And Joel and Ellie become, because of their skills and the journey they've been on and the skills they’ve accrued and how, (I don't know if brave is the right word, maybe with Ellie it’s more reckless) but they are very valuable members of this society, of this town. Um, so for the story it was important to take some time to establish, okay, here's what's at stake. Here's what they stand to lose. Here's what Ellie stands to lose, most importantly by going on this journey. That's why we want it to kind of slow things down at the beginning and really set up what Jackson is and what our relationships. Um, and then later in the story also show that there are people here that get into fights. They get drunk, that whatever bigoted ways they had before the outbreak, they're still carrying post outbreak. It doesn't mean they're necessarily bad people, but it's like they're not perfect people. They're flawed people just like everybody else in the world.
CHRISTIAN: One of the moments that, uh, also again broke me, um, was the showing of, of the dance.
HALLEY: Oh yeah, I love the dance.
[SFX of the dance, music, etc
DINA: Okay, I have a very serious question for you. How bad do I smell?
SFX of ELLIE sniffing
ELLIE: Like a hot pile of garbage.
DINA: Oh, okay.
DINA smears her sweaty cheek up against ELLIE
ELLIE: Ugh (laughs)
DINA: How ‘bout that?
ELLIE: Gross.
DINA: (laughs) You love it…
ELLIE: Every guy in this room is staring at you right now.
DINA: Maybe they’re staring at you.
ELLIE: (scoffs) They’re not.
DINA: Maybe they’re jealous of you.
ELLIE: I’m... just a girl. Not a threat.
DINA: ... Oh Ellie, I think they should be terrified of you.]
CHRISTIAN: When we finally see the dance kind of play out and the moments of, uh, Dina and Ellie together and Ellie saying, I'm just a girl. And like Ashley, you know, knocking that out of the park
HALLEY: Mmmhmm - I hate to give Neil credit for anything. It really hurts my soul. But he did write that line and I pushed back against it. Um, and I, I don't want to say I was wrong, but I, I really do love the moment now. And yeah, you know, she's got this best friend who she believes is straight and she's dancing with her and she, she's insecure. Like is Dina flirting with me or is this just Dina? And nobody, nobody, not even Jesse is like giving it a second thought because this is just her scrappy best friend dancing with her and being nervous and sheepish. And you, meanwhile you've got Ellie who has Dina wrapped around her and, and, and she's like afraid she's going to give herself away. You know. And like we have such incredible animators who like, did focused on pupil dilation and blushing and like sweat and like how do you show all of those revealing moments that Ellie can't control, you know, this is Ellie at her most arguably one of her most out of control moments. Right? She is a vulnerable in the same way, you know, she's, I would say arguably out of control when she's leaving the farm or out of control when she has to fight Abby. But it is these lizard brain moments that allow her to be this holistic character and it gives her insecurity and it makes, it shows us how much she values Dina.
SHANNON: My name is Shannon Woodward and I play Dina. Well, first of all, the game means a lot to me. Like, I'm one of the massive fan base. Like, I was obsessed with the first game. I can't even count how many times I've played it. And you know, I ended up in the game because I had been working with Halley Gross on, uh, Westworld. She wrote on the first season and we became friends, and we were at a party one night and I asked her what she was doing over our, our summer break and she was like, Oh, I'm uh, I'm actually, um, you know, freelancing at this, uh, video game company. And I was like, Oh, I mean, what video game company? Cause I play a lot of games. And she was like, uh, Naughty Dog. And I was like what? What are you guys writing?
CHRISTIAN: (laughs)
SHANNON: The Last of Us [Part] II? And the game wasn't announced yet and she just went white. And she was like, I'm not allowed to talk about it. I was like, Oh, sorry. Wow, that's amazing that they're making that. Um, I won't tell anyone. I was like, but I'm such a big fan. Tell Neil, like, I would die to have a line in the game. And there was like a relay back and forth for like six months of like, Oh, he really likes the show. And I was like, well, I really like everything he does.
CHRISTIAN: (laughs)
SHANNON: Until eventually I think, I think it must've been, I mean, maybe even almost a year after that nine months, uh, she was like, you know, there is a role but you'd have to audition. And I was like, uh, what? There's a role? Um, and I read and um, and they, they hired me. Um, but I never needed to do any kind of preparation or anything to do this. Like I lived in that game with everyone else. You know, like I think that's what's so incredible about this game in particular and what really moved me about the first game, is that it feels like it elevates the concept of a novel to, with a fourth dimension. Right? Which is that you feel like you are personally making these decisions. Like you're personally taking Ellie across the country. Everyone loves Ellie. They took her across the country. We all did. We all saved Ellie’s life, um, in that first game. And, um, and so for me, like loving Ellie, uh, was not a job. That was like, it was easy.
ASHLEY: It's scary to sort of be the, the, the person that the story is based around. And especially with a game that is, umm, loved as much as this game, I wanted to do right by it.
but at the end of the day, I wasn't alone because... also was surrounded by other incredible actors that I got to work with. Shannon being one of them, which most of my scenes I got to shoot with Shannon, and she's one of my favorite actors I've ever worked with. And for me, my favorite actors to work opposite of are actors that are prepared, and then will let all of that go and live in the moment. Shannon does that in spades. Like you just don't know what she's going to do, and it's, it's so exciting. And so many of the scenes felt just electric because of that. And it was just like a, a live wire because we had these, these scenes and these beautiful words so wonderfully written by Neil and Halley, and, uh, Neil just, uh, let us free. And Shannon and I trusted each other implicitly and... we each just sat there and, you know, would take our hands. And each time we shot, we just sort of had this unspoken bond of I'll follow you, let's fucking go.
CHRISTIAN: I'm curious for you coming in and writing these two characters, what you wanted to convey and we can talk about all of the relationships, not just, uh, Dina and Ellie as like a queer couple but also Mel and Owen and Owen and Abby. But what it's like writing these characters and writing love that feels authentic, but again, in a time of, you know, they're not going to college and then grad school and then getting married. Um, and kind of what, what going steady maybe does or does not look like and kind of how you write an honest relationship in a world that hopefully we never know?
HALLEY: Well, love is hopefully, hopefully one of those things that can feel more universal, right? That, that most people can relate to or see some part of themselves in another character that is in love, like the chemical release, the fixation, the nervousness, the insecurity. We've all been there. And that was a real opportunity to, to get people on board with Ellie, with Dina, ultimately also with Abby, Owen and Mel. Um, but so when writing Ellie and Dina, what we were really focused on is like how do you, if Ellie and Dina are best friends and Ellie is ostensibly out to everybody but, but Joel, um, though that's only a reveal at the end in the opening, she is actually out to Joel. Um, but if she's, if that's not her issue, it's just about like, I don't want to ruin my friendship. I remember like Neil and I went through pages and pages and pages of in-game dialogue and then we actually filmed and then reshot the hookup scene in the grow house.
And that had like way, way, way, way, way more dialogue. I think I wrote a page long monologue, like a full, I mean fucking Moby Dick sized monologue about, um, where, where Ellie is just freaking out about ruining her friendship with Dina and why she's been bottling up these feelings for so long. And how Dina as a friend means so much to her and she didn't want to ruin that. And I think, gosh, that's just, you know, who doesn't have a friend who has been in that situation who can't see that? So like, okay, if you were a straight dude somewhere else, like yeah, but you know what that feels like for Ellie. Okay. Yeah. She is a woman. She's a lesbian. But gosh, I mean, you're rooting for her. She's so nervous. And you've also got this tough motherfucking character, right? She can kill anything. She’s-you know, she can do anything she wants and she fucking, Dina makes her nervous. Dina makes her scared. Dina is the reason that she's like losing her words and her hands are sweating and like she'd go up against any Shambler compared to this fucking flirtatious girl. And that also gave us a chance to like make her feel really multifaceted, to make her feel not impervious and to give stakes. It's like, this is the thing she's fighting for. She's fighting through herself to get to Dina in the same way she will fight through herself to let Abby go.
[DINA: ... Can I ask you a question?
ELLIE: I don’t know, can you?
DINA: Scale of 1 to 10… 1 being like absolute trash, and 10 being... life altering... how would you rate our kiss from last night?
ELLIE: ... Why are we still talking about this?
DINA: I asked you to rate our kiss.
ELLIE: I don’t know…
DINA: I’d give it a 6.
ELLIE: A 6? Wow.
DINA: Like a solid 6.
ELLIE: Okay.
DINA: There were a lot of people around.
ELLIE: Yeah, but 6?
DINA: Oh, what? I mean, now I really wanna know how you’d rate it.
ELLIE: ... I don’t think you do…
DINA: You’re infuriating.
ELLIE: Have you met you?
DINA: You make me want to go back outside into that blizzard.
ELLIE: (whispers) ... No one is stopping you.
DINA: (whispers) ... This better be better than a 6.
SFX of kissing]
ASHLEY: (sighs) I love it. It's, it's, it's another one of my favorite moments in the game because it's just so, um, simple and pure and beautiful, of these two teenagers, this fresh love for each other and just, um, Ugh, I love it. I love that scene so much. And I feel like we finally landed on the right version of it. I, and personally, I think a lot of the versions that we had were great, but that one in particular felt the most real and honest for the game. Like the representation in this game of a queer relationship is so real and so beautiful, and the kindness and how much they love each other, and it's beautiful and it's sexy. And I am so excited that I got to take part in that and to represent a queer relationship in that way - that they have a family life, they're, there, they're raising this adorable child together. It's, it is a wonderful and beautiful relationship across the board.
[SFX of farmhouse door opening and closing
DINA: Hey - where ya been?
ELLIE: Hunting, took a little longer than I thought. Who’s here?
DINA: Eh, just come inside.
SFX of TOMMY playing with the baby
TOMMY: Hey, that is quite a grip you got there!
ELLIE: Hey, Tommy.
TOMMY: There you are!
ELLIE: Here, let me take him. Come here little bud.
ELLIE: Hey, It’s good to see you.
TOMMY: Mm, you too. You’re gettin' heavy.
ELLIE: I know - he’s just a big ball of muscle]
CHRISTIAN: I'm curious what you think Ellie and Tommy's relationship is or will be. Um, and maybe even what it was in the game, in that moment. Uh, one of the, my favorite moments in the game is, um, when, when he taps his finger, it's kind of like the,
[ELLIE: Town’s good? Maria good?
TOMMY: She’s fine, we-uh. We’re taking some time apart.]
CHRISTIAN: And there's just like a subtle, (taps) like on the table. And there's so much said with so little. Like, he knows what he's doing, right? I'm putting, I'm projecting. I want to get your-- I'll quit poisoning the well. I want to get your take on their relationship.
ASHLEY: (sighs) yeah, when Tommy finally comes to Ellie after, I mean it’s been past a year, it's, it's been some time.
[TOMMY: So I’ve been putting out feelers for months now. And this new guy heard my story. He told me about a woman that he traded with while he was moving through California. Described her as built like an ox, traveling with a kid with scars across his face. That’s gotta be her.]
I feel like that scene just shows how much Tommy is hurting. I mean, I think there's, yes, of course, it's terrible that Tommy is coming to her and putting this on her to do, and also, eh, putting the onus on her, of saying like, well, I can't do it. I can't go out there and go do this thing. And you're the only one left who can go get this revenge. And... that scene is heartbreaking to me because it shows how broken he is, where even he thinks that what's going to solve this pain and this hurt that they're all experiencing is by killing the person who did it.
[TOMMY: Reckon it’s easy. Forget about her. You sitting all comfy way out here. I’ll make her pay.
DINA: Tommy-
TOMMY: That’s what you said when we got back to Jackson.
DINA: Tommy.]
Yeah, it's shitty. But I get it. It's, that is a person who was going through so much pain and doesn't know what to do with it. I mean, it feels to me, especially in that scene where you see where Tommy comes to Ellie for the first time, and you see him after all that, he's in a bad place, he's in a really bad place. And so is Ellie. I mean, you, you see her at the house finally, after, you know, going on the journey with Abby, and then you come back to the house and see this beautiful home life that she has with Dina. And then she has a panic attack in the barn, and you realize, Oh, she's really not okay. She's, she's not doing well. And it's, I mean, this game absolutely just shows you how hate can absolutely wreak havoc on a family and an entire community of people.
SHANNON: You know, in the first act we have all of the love story stuff with, with Ellie and Dina in the way that it's, they just are in love and they're being sweet with each other, and you know, they're very quickly taken out of that reverie, um, once, uh, everything happens with Abby and Joel. And, and then she's immediately caring for her girlfriend who is deeply grieving. And I think, you know, Dina suspects that she might be pregnant, but I think it's just not the priority to her at that point in time. Um, they're on a mission and I think that is very much, you know, what Ellie and Dina share, which is, you know, they patrol all the time. They're on a mission, they have a job to do. And she's incredibly dedicated and loyal and, and strong and patient. But, um, you know, then as the story moves on and she realizes that she is pregnant and that she is a liability, like, it's not her first choice and there's kind of nothing she can do about it. Um, and that's really hard for her, to let her go. And especially to basically see Ellie come back in these moments of like progressively things just getting darker and darker, and... then there's some relief, you know? And they, they, they go home and they create a life together. They have a family and, and I think they're really happy then. And there’s a sneaking suspicion for a long time I think, that Ellie is not well. And she's watching someone, I think to some extent, just get sicker and that's terrifying.
[ELLIE: I have to finish it.
DINA: … (sighs) You don’t OWE Tommy anything.
ELLIE: I don’t sleep. I don’t eat. I’m… I’m not like you, Dina.]
SHANNON: And I, I saw that scene like, as like a death almost. Um, and it goes through the bargaining stages of it, but then also just realizing that she has to accept that, that if this person is going to give into this, you know, sickness, that... there is nothing she can do about that, but that she has to protect herself and protect their child. And also attempting to protect Ellie by setting real boundaries, which is that, you know, if you leave, I won't be here when you get back.
[DINA: You think this is easy? For you and for him, I deal with it.
ELLIE: ...I love you.
DINA: Prove it… Stay.
ELLIE: ...I can’t.
DINA: So what? I’m just supposed to, to sit here and wait for you? For God knows how long, just thinking you’re fucking dead the entire time?
ELLIE: I don’t plan on dying.
DINA: Yeah, well neither did Jesse. Or Joel…
ELLIE picks up her backpack
DINA: Hey, stop. Hey. Hey. Come on. We’ve got a family. She doesn’t get to be more important than that.]
SHANNON: Um, and I think you know, everybody can kind of relate to seeing someone they love change in a way that feels like they're slipping away. But for it to happen so it, with such stakes, um, for Dina's, it's really, it's a tragic scene, but an important scene. It's the only time, like really that anyone really tries to beg for Ellie's sanity, you know?
[SFX of DINA crying
DINA: ...I’m not gonna do this again.
ELLIE: ...That’s up to you.]
CHRISTIAN: I want to spend the rest of my life talking with you about that porch scene.
TROY: Oh. Man. When we were shooting that, I want to say that was damn near the only scene we did that day that I did that day. And it was hefty and it immediately was, I think we were thinking about that scene more than anything else. And the temptation is to think about the death scene and that's what's going to eat up most of your bandwidth. And instead it was like we both wanted the reconciliation to be there. We both needed to forgive ourselves in that moment for not for past transgressions of the first game, but what we both knew that we had to do. We both had to be in some way complicit in, in Joel's death. And for me, that was that moment of if we can get here and if we can have this, this, this will, this will sanctify that moment. This will baptize and make Holy that moment, make it worth it.
[SFX of JOEL strumming guitar
JOEL: Hey.
ELLIE: What are you drinkin'?
JOEL: Coffee.
ELLIE: Where’d ya get that?
JOEL: Uhhh those people that came through last week. I’m a little embarrassed as to what I had to trade to get it, but not bad.
ELLIE: I had stuff under control.
JOEL: Yeah, I know.
ELLIE: And you need to stop harassing Jesse about my patrols.
JOEL: Okay.]
TROY: And I think that that scene on the porch is all subtext. Um, and it's, the beauty of it is the tragedy. The beauty of it is that they came this close to truly being able to forgive. And for Joel to truly ask for forgiveness. Um, and that's as close as they'll ever get. And to me that becomes that retroactively um, yeah, now I understand why it's, it's not, it's not that Joel died and that's what sparked all of this. It's that they never had that closure. It's that they never had that, that forgiveness. And you'll never have that. And that's what revenge and someone who is killed out of revenge. What that is, what that robs the, this is what this is what it robs you of is all of the moments that could have been. Um, and I, I understand all of the choices that Ellie makes. I understand all the choices that Abby makes. I don't agree with them, but I understand them.
CHRISTIAN: Have you buried Joel?
TROY: Hmm. I think uh, man. What a great question. Question. I think I'm reserving that moment for when it's time to do that. And I don't think it would be an injustice to the game and the team in my experience, if I relegated that and did that before I had experienced the way that it was meant to be experienced. That moment is, is meant and was carefully curated and crafted over years by hundreds of people, lovingly, painfully, skillfully. And for me to go, yeah, I've already done it. It's like, well how have you buried someone who's not dead yet? So I have been reserving that moment until, uh, until I play it.
[JOEL: Dina...is she your girlfriend?
ELLIE: No. (scoffs) No, she--that was just one kiss - it doesn’t mean anything. She just--I don't know why she did that.
JOEL: But you do like her?
ELLIE: I’m so stupid.
JOEL: Look, I have no idea what that girl's intentions are, but I do know that she would be lucky to have you.
ELLIE: You’re such an asshole.
JOEL: I’m not trying to--
ELLIE: I was supposed to die in that hospital. My life would have fucking mattered. But you took that from me (sighs)
JOEL: If somehow the Lord gave me a second chance at that moment, I would do it all over again.
ELLIE: I just - I don't think I can ever forgive you for that but I would like to try.
JOEL: I’d like that.
ELLIE: Okay. I’ll see you around.
JOEL: Yep.
SFX of footsteps]
<<MUSIC PLAYING>>
CHRISTIAN: Next time on The Official The Last of Us Podcast…
[NEIL: If people don’t like Abby, if they don’t get Abby, this game fails. It doesn’t, it won’t work for them.
ABBY: If it was me, I’d want you to do the surgery
LAURA: I don’t think you can feel at peace ever once you’ve dealt with that kind of a tragedy.
HALLEY: What happens when you don’t put the knife down? It’s just this continued escalation toward destruction, and everybody loses, right? And you can’t even remember why you did it, but the ego was so driving these characters. The sense of what they’re entitled to and how they’ve been wronged.
IAN: They fight and bicker and have judgements of each other, and you know like, just all these prejudices from a lifetime of hatred. And then they overcome that and become friends.
ABBY: They’re your fucking people.
LEV: You’re my people.]
The Official The Last of Us Podcast is produced by PlayStation and Spoke Media.
It’s hosted by me, Christian Spicer and written by Brigham Mosley.
Our Sony PlayStation team includes Charlie Yedor, Cristian Cardona and Carrie Surtees.
Our Naughty Dog team includes Arne Meyer and Scott Lowe.
Our production team is Carson McCain, Kelly Kolff, Tre Jones, Reyes Mendoza and Aleisha Force.
This episode was mixed by Evan Arnett who contributed additional sound design and music.
Today’s episode included interviews with Neil Druckmann, Halley Gross, Troy Baker, Ashley Johnson, and Shannon Woodward.
Our executive producers are Alia Tavakolian and Keith Reynolds.
Thanks for listening.
<END>